Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren
(10-21-2012, 02:51 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 02:09 PM)TrentCath Wrote:   If we actually look at the popes words, which is why I quoted your original post, we can see that your justifications have little to do with what he actually said. His words are pregnant with indifferentism, there are good things that happen in the church, there are good things that happen outside the Church, he of course makes no distinction, we should praise and esteem them and not ignore the good things done by them due to the profound communion with them etc... There is even an implication that actually this division is the will of God and that somehow the many heretics being outside the Church reflects God using many different tools.

If you can't see how that's problematic, you are simply being wilfully blind. It approaches some of what John Paul II says when it comes to problematic statements. 

There is nothing problematic in the Holy Father's words. Everything he said is so. I don't know why the idea exists that if there are 3 things that are true -- X, Y, and Z -- the Pope is "religiously indifferent" unless he mentions all three. If X is "Actual grace exists outside of the Church" and Y is "Natural virtues are evident in many who are not formal members of the Church" and Z is "Protestants are wrong in not submitting to papal authority, some folks would call the Pope all sorts of names if he just mentions the first two on any given day.  I think some people expect the Pope to wake up every morning, go to his balcony, and yell out "Protestants are material heretics! Just so's y'all know!"  If someone wants to say that he doesn't preach enough about the importance of conversion to the Church, I'd agree. But that hardly makes wrong or a proof of indifference out of anything he said above.

Vox with all due respect I strongly disagree and you are completely missing my point. The message is clearly indifferentist, that can be seen from what is said about this supposed communion and the issue with Gods diversity being shown through this division as if actually heresy were a good thing or as if there being heretics were a good thing. Actually heretics do not manifest diversity they manifest error and actually there is no deep communion with them. It is also scandalous to magnify those communities in error and deprecate the Church in the next sentence. I do not understand how anyone can read the popes words and go "actually its fine, he says nothing wrong" that, to me, seems to just be wilful blindness. How is saying we have a deep communion with those outside the Church Catholic? Which pope or saint praised these lost souls, not for some individual good work but corporately as whole groups? How is saying that we all work together doing Gods work in different ways Catholic or not indifferentist? It is the very definition of indifferentism. Catholics, Protestants, it doesn't matter, we all work together doing Gods work.

There is also a further problem with your analysis, to whom is the pope speaking? It can hardly be said the Church has failed to praise almost every heretic, apostate and schismatic under the Sun, so how is it failing to recognise their so called gifts? Has not the church spent 50 years praising these groups and saying nice things about them? This is not what the Church needs, it needs to be reminded of its own God given glory and uniqueness.

If you disagree then fine, but you will not convince me otherwise or rather I have seen no compelling arguments showing that what the pope said is perfectly orthodox.

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - by TrentCath - 10-21-2012, 04:45 PM

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