Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren
(10-23-2012, 06:41 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(10-23-2012, 05:26 AM)TrentCath Wrote: i'm sorry vox but i'm confused, what is the difference between protestants and these heretics? You do realise that there were validly baptised heretics back then right? Regardless have you not seen the numerous authors and no less than three theological manuals which claim that heretics are cut off from the church, validly baptised or not, unless they are in good faith i.e invincibly ignorant? Can anyone bring up any pre conciliar sources to support these assertions? i, for one, would like to read them, as the leading manualists i.e tanquerey, ott etc... clearly state otherwise

From the Catholic Encyclopedia, written around 1910: "The fact of having received valid baptism places material heretics under the jurisdiction of the Church, and if they are in good faith, they belong to the soul of the Church. Their material severance, however, precludes them from the use of ecclesiastical rights, except the right of being judged according to ecclesiastical law if, by any chance, they are brought before an ecclesiastical court. They are not bound by ecclesiastical laws enacted for the spiritual well-being of its members, e.g. by the Six Commandments of the Church."

Protestants aren't "members" of the Church (I misspoke in an earlier post), but there is some level of communion with them by virtue of valid Baptism. It's just that simple. Some Protestants are even a part of the "Soul of the Church" (see "Mystici Corporis" about the Body and Soul of the Church). Most serious Protestants are good-willed (as good-willed as most Catholics are, anyway) and are ignorant of what the Church teaches. They've been lied to, misled, and are pretty clueless as a group (if they understood, they'd be Catholics, assuming they're good-willed). This just isn't hard to understand, and what the Pope said in the text that brought all this one, is fine. You might dislike often hearing that sort of talk, even if true, while rarely hearing anything about the dangers of heresy, the need to become formally Catholic, etc. (I do, too), but that's no reason to impugn the Holy Father's words. He even said they are "outside the community" ("For this reason the members of the Church must not be jealous but rejoice if someone outside the community does something good in Christ’s name") and invoked Our Lady, which a lot of Prots wouldn't appreciate ("dear friends, through the intercession of Mary Most Holy, let us pray that we might know how to rejoice in every good deed and initiative"). There's not one word in that text that is wrong, expressive of "indifferentism," or scandalous, let alone "clearly scandalous."


a) I'm sorry but the catholic encylopedia doesn't trump the teaching of the manualists or actual theologians i.e St Robert Bellarmine etc... and it definitely doesn't trump the teaching of popes such as pius ix

b) I disagree, I do not believe most protestants are in bona fide, if that term is synonymous with invincible ignorance, it is dangerous to presume such a thing and there is no justification or authority for doing such a thing. The fact is that prima facie protestants are not in the church, they may actually be in the church, but we cannot know such a thing, there is therefore no justification for treating or referring to them as such without make this distinction, there is no justification whatsoever for corporately referring to them as in the church. While individual non catholics may or may not be in the Church, there are no multiple churchs, eclessial groups or whetever new and wonderful phrase is used, there is only ONE Church throughout this address, as throughout modern teaching non catholics are corporately referred to, this is theologically unjustifiable.

c) You have addressed nothing written by me pointing out the clearly indifferentist parts of the popes speech, the fact is and remains that the pope essentially claims that the Catholic Church and those outside are just two different tools God uses to achieve the same end.

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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - by TrentCath - 10-23-2012, 07:26 AM

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