Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren
(10-23-2012, 07:26 AM)TrentCath Wrote: a) I'm sorry but the catholic encylopedia doesn't trump the teaching of the manualists or actual theologians i.e St Robert Bellarmine etc... and it definitely doesn't trump the teaching of popes such as pius ix

b) I disagree, I do not believe most protestants are in bona fide, if that term is synonymous with invincible ignorance, it is dangerous to presume such a thing and there is no justification or authority for doing such a thing. The fact is that prima facie protestants are not in the church, they may actually be in the church, but we cannot know such a thing, there is therefore no justification for treating or referring to them as such without make this distinction, there is no justification whatsoever for corporately referring to them as in the church. While individual non catholics may or may not be in the Church, there are no multiple churchs, eclessial groups or whetever new and wonderful phrase is used, there is only ONE Church throughout this address, as throughout modern teaching non catholics are corporately referred to, this is theologically unjustifiable.

c) You have addressed nothing written by me pointing out the clearly indifferentist parts of the popes speech, the fact is and remains that the pope essentially claims that the Catholic Church and those outside are just two different tools God uses to achieve the same end.

a) The Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't have to "trump" the teachings of theologians, because theologians agree with what I am saying.

b) It isn't dangerous to believe the Truth, and the Truth is that the Church is bigger than She appears. It would be dangerous to not preach the full Truth, which includes the fact that Christ set up a Church and wants Christians united in Her, but it is still a fact that some folks who are outside Her visible community are a part of the Soul of the Church. No one here has referred to Protestants as "corporately" in the Church. Neither has the Holy Father. I'm the one that's been stressing that there is only ONE Church when I encounter those who like to talk about the Conciliar Church, as if it isn't the Catholic one.

c) There isn't anything in the Pope's words to indicate indifferentism. You're seeing what you want to see. And God does use things outside the Church for His Good. He can even bring Good from Evil if He wants (not that we are allowed to do evil for a good end). For reference, this is what the Pope said. Without characterizing it -- without saying "this is heretical" or "this is indifferent" or "this is not good" -- point out the line that is theologically incorrect or just untrue:

Midday Angelus, Sept 30,  Castel Gandolfo.

Dear brothers and sisters!

The Gospel of this Sunday presents one of those episodes of the life of Christ that, although, reported “in passing,” so to speak, contain a profound meaning (cf. Mark 9:38-41). It tells that someone, who was not one of Jesus’ followers, cast out demons in Jesus’ name. The Apostle John, young and zealous as he was, wanted to stop him but Jesus did not permit it; on the contrary, he takes the occasion to teach his disciples that God can do good and even wondrous things outside of their circle, and that it is possible to work together in the cause of the Kingdom of God in different ways, even offering a simple glass of water to a missionary (9:41).

St. Augustine writes in this regard: “Just as in the ‘Catholica,'” that is in the Church, “we can find that which is not Catholic, so also outside of the ‘Catholica’ there can be something Catholic” (“On Baptism Against the Donatists,” PL 43, VII, 39, 77). For this reason the members of the Church must not be jealous but rejoice if someone outside the community does something good in Christ’s name, as long as he does it with the right intention and with respect. It can also occur that in the Church herself sometimes there is a failure to value and to appreciate, in a spirit of profound communion, the good things done by various ecclesial groups. We must all, however, be always able to appreciate and esteem each other, praising the Lord for the infinite “imagination” with which he works in the Church and in the world.

In today’s liturgy there also echoes the Apostle James’ invective against the dishonest rich, who place their trust in the security of wealth gained unjustly (cf. James 5:1-6). In this connection Caesarius of Arles states: “While riches cannot harm a good man because they make him merciful, they cannot help a bad man inasmuch as he holds on to them greedily or wastes them in dissipation” (Sermons 35, 4). The Apostle James’ words, while they warn against the vain pursuit of material goods, constitute a powerful call to use them with a view to solidarity and the common good, acting always with equity and morality at all levels.

Dear friends, through the intercession of Mary Most Holy, let us pray that we might know how to rejoice in every good deed and initiative, without envy and jealousy, and to use earthly goods wisely in the continuous pursuit of eternal goods.
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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - by VoxClamantis - 10-23-2012, 09:09 AM



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