Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren
(10-23-2012, 03:13 PM)James02 Wrote:
Quote: On 1, the fact is Christians are divided. These theologians are attempting to understand the Church as united and holy while still being divided and unholy.
  I am curious Script whether you are even aware that you are forced to play these rhetoric games.  First the straw man, and now this, the old switch-a-roo.  Do you even see it?  When you are forced to play these games, it means you are losing on the factual argument.

I'll assume you don't consciously play these games, it is just reflexive to make excuses.  The CHURCH is not divided and unholy.  Period.  That is the issue.  And the "Christians are divided" phrase, while superficially correct, does not adequately address the issue.  The prots are heretics that are separated from the CHURCH, they are outside the CHURCH, and they are on the path to hell.  That is the issue, and the Pope and the Vatican are ignoring it.  Many in the Vatican even disagree with this Catholic dogma.  That is a very serious issue.

You're kind of proving the point. If there weren't baptized people around on the path to hell, there would not be all these overtures to address it. What you seem to miss is they are not addressing it the way you want them to, but they are addressing it. Hopefully you can admit that. And when you say "the 'Christians are divided' phrase, while superficially correct, does not adequately address the issue," is precisely why the teaching of communion ecclesiology was proposed, to "adequately address the issue". Your statements about their separation from the Church are not denied. You may see something to this effect by an imprecise analogy when there is a separation between spouses, and even a legal break, but God does not recognize that severing the way we do. There is an "imperfect communion", but the bond is real. The indelible mark of baptism stays. Visible reality is not in line with invisible reality. One partner is righteous to the marriage bond, has honored their vow, while the other has committed an adultery. The baptized should be in full communion with the Christ and His Church. That's what the Pope is working for. You seem to have more trouble with the Pope not being fire and brimstone, kickin' ass and taking names. Are you disgusted with the "soft" parts of the Bible when our Lord is not like this?


(10-23-2012, 03:41 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Let us reacquaint ourselves with Catholic doctrine:  "We know that the Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Christ because it alone has the marks of the true Church.  ...  The chief marks of the Church are four: It is one, holy, catholic or universal, and apostolic.  ...  We know that no other church but the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ because no other church has these four marks" (Official Revised Baltimore Catechism No. 2, qq. 153, 155, 160.).

That's why they were often referred to as negative marks. We've discussed this in other threads.

Cf. http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/inde...518.0.html
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Re: Benedict: Take Joy in the Good of our Separated Brethren - by Scriptorium - 10-23-2012, 04:02 PM



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