The Individual, The Family, and Catholic Corporate Society - Dr. John Rao
#31
Pete, small businesses can grow organically. It isn't necessary to have robber barons or todays predatory capitalists to have lage multi-national corporations.
3 brothers I grew up with did it, starting in their basement sharpening knives for restaurants. Their father an immigrant taught them how to grind, and as he grew old took charge and grew it organically. Your absolutely right that small shops needs orders which come from large companies. But to think Carnegie was more influential to steel than Bessemer is plain silly.

Business starts at the bottom and grows it does not start at the top, even Rockefeller started there. I could take you through Bally Corporation's story as my uncle was the chief engineer from after the war and his wife my aunt was the owner's personal secretary with power of attorney. My position is not against big business, what I want is moral rules of commerce. As an aside there is now legislation from the large corporations to change the patent laws. They would change them so that the first there not the "inventor" would get the patent. In short large legal epartments would demolish small inventors.

tim 
Reply
#32
(10-11-2012, 03:25 AM)PeterII Wrote:
(10-10-2012, 11:39 AM)obscurus Wrote: PeterII,

I have a question for you: Do you accept the Social teachings of the Church? (Rerum Novarum and on) If not, it is rather rash to dismiss the teachings of the Popes on economic matters. Sure, the Popes do not specify a particular economic system but they state that economics cannot be divorced from moral considerations and state principles which must govern economics and social teachings. I don't have time to write more but it seems as if you are relying on the old canard of calling your opponent names to further your position.

The real canard is using Church teaching to justify socialism and totalitarianism when it can be demonstrated that societies can exist peacefully and profitably without the intervention of a State.  Every societal function can and ultimately should be privatized.  State coercion is as useful as the institution of slavery.  Some Catholics used Church teaching to justify that too. 

The State is a natural institution and is not in of itself evil as you seem to imply. Yes, I think we would all agree that we don't want the State intervening in every aspect of individual and family life but it is quite another thing to deny its right to intervene when necessary for the common good. There are certain things the individual and the family cannot acquire by themselves and therefore need the help of the State. Now, if we are speaking of "Christendom" and the Social Kingship of Christ, I am not sure how one could deny that the State would have the right to publicly repress error and the like, again, precisely for the common good, provided it can be proven it is more beneficial than mere toleration.

Peter, it is not wrong for the Church and the State to cooperate in a harmonious manner and not to be separated. This is the ideal. To think otherwise is to advocate a liberalism condemned by the Popes.

To further another point, man needs society for his full perfection, he is not a rugged individual - autonomous from Creation. Read the following from Divini Redemptoris of Pope Pius XI:

Quote:But God has likewise destined man for civil society according to the dictates of his very nature. In the plan of the Creator, society is a natural means which man can and must use to reach his destined end. Society is for man and not vice versa. This must not be understood in the sense of liberalistic individualism, which subordinates society to the selfish use of the individual; but only in the sense that by means of an organic union with society and by mutual collaboration the attainment of earthly happiness is placed within the reach of all. In a further sense, it is society which affords the opportunities for the development of all the individual and social gifts bestowed on human nature. These natural gifts have a value surpassing the immediate interests of the moment, for in society they reflect the divine perfection, which would not be true were man to live alone. But on final analysis, even in this latter function, society is made for man, that he may recognize this reflection of God's perfection, and refer it in praise and adoration to the Creator. Only man, the human person, and not society in any form is endowed with reason and a morally free will.

Do you object to anything Pope Pius XI said?
Reply
#33
(10-11-2012, 08:16 AM)Tim Wrote: Pete, small businesses can grow organically. It isn't necessary to have robber barons or todays predatory capitalists to have lage multi-national corporations.
3 brothers I grew up with did it, starting in their basement sharpening knives for restaurants. Their father an immigrant taught them how to grind, and as he grew old took charge and grew it organically. Your absolutely right that small shops needs orders which come from large companies. But to think Carnegie was more influential to steel than Bessemer is plain silly.

Business starts at the bottom and grows it does not start at the top, even Rockefeller started there. I could take you through Bally Corporation's story as my uncle was the chief engineer from after the war and his wife my aunt was the owner's personal secretary with power of attorney. My position is not against big business, what I want is moral rules of commerce. As an aside there is now legislation from the large corporations to change the patent laws. They would change them so that the first there not the "inventor" would get the patent. In short large legal epartments would demolish small inventors.

tim   

What must be understood is that a business cannot be predatory without the help of the government, because it is only the government that has a monopoly on coercive power.  We don't have any disagreements about business in general, large or small.  Commerce when allowed to function freely develops its own laws that are to everyone's mutual benefit, as proven by merchant laws.  All the problems come from the refusal to compete fairly - which is done through government intervention.  But the Distributists, instead of criticizing government intervention, support it. 
Reply
#34
(10-11-2012, 01:37 PM)PeterII Wrote: Commerce when allowed to function freely develops its own laws that are to everyone's mutual benefit, as proven by merchant laws. 

So much for original sin . . .

By the way, capitalism was a creation of the modern state, so I'm not sure that one can argue that anarcho-capitalism or what have you is actually possible or that laissez-faire capitalism is "true" capitalism while "state" capitalism is not. The market economy and the modern state depend on one another.
Reply
#35
I'm sorry but laws need to be made. Business has no morality of itself. Anti-trust laws ae necessary and there must be a pint at which large corporations must be split into varied entities. I don't see how right order conflates to socialism, nor unbridled capitalism is moral.

tim
Reply
#36
obscurus Wrote:The State is a natural institution and is not in of itself evil as you seem to imply. Yes, I think we would all agree that we don't want the State intervening in every aspect of individual and family life but it is quite another thing to deny its right to intervene when necessary for the common good. There are certain things the individual and the family cannot acquire by themselves and therefore need the help of the State.

First, the State is unnatural.  It is a human invention that monopolizes coercive power.  It is involuntary.  What does a family need that they cannot acquire by themselves or in voluntary cooperation with others?

Quote:Now, if we are speaking of "Christendom" and the Social Kingship of Christ, I am not sure how one could deny that the State would have the right to publicly repress error and the like, again, precisely for the common good, provided it can be proven it is more beneficial than mere toleration.

Peter, it is not wrong for the Church and the State to cooperate in a harmonious manner and not to be separated. This is the ideal. To think otherwise is to advocate a liberalism condemned by the Popes.

I wonder, would you allow a foreign government to take over the Vatican to suppress the perceived errors of JP II or Benedict XVI? 

Quote:To further another point, man needs society for his full perfection, he is not a rugged individual - autonomous from Creation. Read the following from Divini Redemptoris of Pope Pius XI:

Quote:But God has likewise destined man for civil society according to the dictates of his very nature. In the plan of the Creator, society is a natural means which man can and must use to reach his destined end. Society is for man and not vice versa. This must not be understood in the sense of liberalistic individualism, which subordinates society to the selfish use of the individual; but only in the sense that by means of an organic union with society and by mutual collaboration the attainment of earthly happiness is placed within the reach of all. In a further sense, it is society which affords the opportunities for the development of all the individual and social gifts bestowed on human nature. These natural gifts have a value surpassing the immediate interests of the moment, for in society they reflect the divine perfection, which would not be true were man to live alone. But on final analysis, even in this latter function, society is made for man, that he may recognize this reflection of God's perfection, and refer it in praise and adoration to the Creator. Only man, the human person, and not society in any form is endowed with reason and a morally free will.

Do you object to anything Pope Pius XI said?


Society is not the State.  I'm making a distinction between involuntary and voluntary social interaction, so there is no objection with my definition.  You have to define what liberalistic individualism means before I can comment. 
Reply
#37
(10-11-2012, 01:46 PM)Tim Wrote: I'm sorry but laws need to be made. Business has no morality of itself. Anti-trust laws ae necessary and there must be a pint at which large corporations must be split into varied entities. I don't see how right order conflates to socialism, nor unbridled capitalism is moral.

tim

You come from Chicago, known as the most corrupt city in America, the cradle of Obama, and you want more government intervention?

Anti-trust laws only serve to destroy businesses that offer the best product at the best price. 
Reply
#38
(10-11-2012, 02:27 PM)PeterII Wrote:
obscurus Wrote:The State is a natural institution and is not in of itself evil as you seem to imply. Yes, I think we would all agree that we don't want the State intervening in every aspect of individual and family life but it is quite another thing to deny its right to intervene when necessary for the common good. There are certain things the individual and the family cannot acquire by themselves and therefore need the help of the State.

First, the State is unnatural.  It is a human invention that monopolizes coercive power.  It is involuntary.  What does a family need that they cannot acquire by themselves or in voluntary cooperation with others?

Quote:Now, if we are speaking of "Christendom" and the Social Kingship of Christ, I am not sure how one could deny that the State would have the right to publicly repress error and the like, again, precisely for the common good, provided it can be proven it is more beneficial than mere toleration.

Peter, it is not wrong for the Church and the State to cooperate in a harmonious manner and not to be separated. This is the ideal. To think otherwise is to advocate a liberalism condemned by the Popes.

I wonder, would you allow a foreign government to take over the Vatican to suppress the perceived errors of JP II or Benedict XVI? 

I said nothing about what you stated. What do you make of the doctrine of the Social Kingship of Christ? Do you believe the ideal is to have Church and State divorced? The system we have now is certainly not the ideal, although it may be the one acceptable due to a variety of factors.

Quote:To further another point, man needs society for his full perfection, he is not a rugged individual - autonomous from Creation. Read the following from Divini Redemptoris of Pope Pius XI:

Quote:But God has likewise destined man for civil society according to the dictates of his very nature. In the plan of the Creator, society is a natural means which man can and must use to reach his destined end. Society is for man and not vice versa. This must not be understood in the sense of liberalistic individualism, which subordinates society to the selfish use of the individual; but only in the sense that by means of an organic union with society and by mutual collaboration the attainment of earthly happiness is placed within the reach of all. In a further sense, it is society which affords the opportunities for the development of all the individual and social gifts bestowed on human nature. These natural gifts have a value surpassing the immediate interests of the moment, for in society they reflect the divine perfection, which would not be true were man to live alone. But on final analysis, even in this latter function, society is made for man, that he may recognize this reflection of God's perfection, and refer it in praise and adoration to the Creator. Only man, the human person, and not society in any form is endowed with reason and a morally free will.

Do you object to anything Pope Pius XI said?


Society is not the State.  I'm making a distinction between involuntary and voluntary social interaction, so there is no objection with my definition.  You have to define what liberalistic individualism means before I can comment. 

Quote:According to the statements below it is synonymous with the State.

Q. What is civil society OR the State?
A. The State is a society naturally formed , necessary to man's perfection, possessing all the means useful to the achievement of its end, occupying a determined area, consisting of certain group of people, living under contingent forms of organization of the sovereign power.

Leo XIII: "Man's natural instict moves him to live in civil society. Isolated he cannot provide himself with the necessary requirements of life, nor procure the means of developing his mental and moral faculties." Immortale Dei, #2

Pius XI: "Civil society is a perfect society, having in itself all the means for its peculiar end." Divini illius magistri.

Pius XII: "the State does not contain in itself and does not mechanically bring together in a given territory a shapeless mass of individuals. It is, and should in practice be, the organic and organizing unity of a real people." Christmas Message, 1944

- Catechism of Catholic Social Teaching, Amintore Fanfani
Reply
#39
Pete why do you purposefully misunderstand what I've written in order to ridicule me ? I have not propsed anything like what goes on here in the hell mouth.

tim
Reply
#40
I should have clarified that society is a broader term than a state but the state itself is a natural society as is the family. To deny that the state is a natural society springing from human nature, and forgive me for repeating myself, is to accept liberalism. Both classical philosophy (e.g. Aristotle) and Catholic teaching support this view of the state being natural.

I am sorry Peter but your libertarianism is blinding you to the fact that there is a rich body of Catholic teaching on social questions. Man cannot achieve his full perfection without help from the State and not as the socialists and communists would have it for they are to varying degrees interested in crushing his humanity or at least giving the State powers it does not have. Somehow you keep claiming that it is socialism and totalitarianism to accept that the State is crucial for man's development. 
Quote:The second most natural society [the first being the family] for man is the state. When several villages join efforts they form a state. Thus it may be that the first states could have developed under economic pressure. The state is a natural development. these two societies are the primary societies. Of course, it must be acknowledged that the Church falls into this category too, but because it is supernatural and has the direct impress of God's divine foundation and direction, it belongs in a class by itself. One may argue for the naturalness of other societes, as some do in regard to a labor union. They will have to argue, that such societies do not acquire their naturalness directly, but from some external circumstance, for example, the current organization of social relations. Here then is found another classification of social organization: natural primary societies such as the family, the state and the Church; and secondary societies which are natural to man in view of the peculiar and particular character of social organization, such as a labor union, a society for the rescue of captive slaves, and the like...

A natural society, is therefore, essential to the fulfillment of man's complete nature. In the words of Aristotle, if a human being withdraws himself from the state, envisaging no other natural society beyond the family and the state, it is because he is either a god, or less than a beast. In other words, a human being can withdraw from all human society only if he is abnormal, abnormal either for the love of God, as were some of the early Christian hermits, or simply abnormal. There are exceptions. A bachelor is the exception, and to a degree he is abnormal.

- Catholic Social Principles, Dirksen, 1961
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)