Voting as a Catholic is CONFUSING!
#41
THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES

These five issues are called non-negotiable because they concern actions that are always morally wrong and must never be promoted by the law. It is a serious sin to endorse or promote any of these actions, and no candidate who really wants to advance the common good will support any of the five non-negotiables.

1. Abortion

The Church teaches that, regarding a law permitting abortions, it is "never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it" (EV 73). Abortion is the intentional and direct killing of an innocent human being, and therefore it is a form of homicide.

The child is always an innocent party, and no law may permit the taking of his life. Even when a child is conceived through rape or incest, the fault is not the child's, who should not suffer death for others' sins.

2. Euthanasia

Often disguised by the name "mercy killing," euthanasia also is a form of homicide. No one has a right to take his own life (suicide), and no one has the right to take the life of any innocent person.

In euthanasia, the ill or elderly are killed out of a misplaced sense of compassion, but true compassion cannot include doing something intrinsically evil to another person (cf. EV 73).

3. Fetal Stem Cell Research

Human embryos are human beings. "Respect for the dignity of the human being excludes all experimental manipulation or exploitation of the human embryo" (CRF 4b).

Recent scientific advances show that any medical cure that might arise from experimentation on fetal stem cells can be developed by using adult stem cells instead. Adult stem cells can be obtained without doing harm to the adults from whom they come. Thus there no longer is a medical argument in favor of using fetal stem cells.

4. Human Cloning

"Attempts . . . for obtaining a human being without any connection with sexuality through 'twin fission,' cloning, or parthenogenesis are to be considered contrary to the moral law, since they are in opposition to the dignity both of human procreation and of the conjugal union" (RHL I:6).

Human cloning also ends up being a form of homicide because the "rejected" or "unsuccessful" clones are destroyed, yet each clone is a human being.

5. Homosexual "Marriage"

True marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Legal recognition of any other form of "marriage" undermines true marriage, and legal recognition of homosexual unions actually does homosexual persons a disfavor by encouraging them to persist in what is an objectively immoral arrangement.

"When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral" (UHP 10).


Nuclear War is not on this list.
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#42
So destroying all of humanity is a lesser evil than abortion? It is acceptable to bring on the annihilation of every man, woman, and child on earth in some circumstances?

I fail to see the logic.
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#43
(10-11-2012, 08:21 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(10-11-2012, 05:04 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: How is Romney a socialist? He doesn't seems to possess any of the socialist traits.

Romney and Obama are both liberals. The idea that either one is a socialist is just rhetoric.

Yeah, I often chuckle when I hear someone called a "socialist." It's a sign that we (we Catholics and we non-liberals) are trapped in Cold War-era modalities of thought. This isn't 1969. We aren't fighting lowbrow monsters anymore. The monsters of the present age are very much middlebrow.

(10-11-2012, 10:38 PM)Allan Wrote: Isn't there a Catholic alternative in the US?  Like a fringe or small party or something?  In Canada, I often find myself voting for someone like that as all the big party candidates are pro- baby killing, pro-unnatural marriage, etc.  doesn't matter which party.  

I used to wonder why there isn't an explicitly Catholic party. I don't anymore though, just because Catholics have so completely assimilated the American paradigm that such would be unthinkable. Head over to CAF. You will find maybe two people who support establishment, for instance. In fact they have been so completely assimilated that they are and have been for some time a model wedge minority for the Democrats.

(10-11-2012, 08:45 PM)Thomas58 Wrote: This economy is a mixed economy; half Socialist, half Capitalist. The trend is not towards more freedom, the trend is towards always more and more government control and intervention into people's lives.

Well, a functioning capitalist economy requires government intervention. The textbook example is antitrust law -  monopolies are a distortion of the market and they must be broken up.

The capitalism / socialism binary doesn't seem quite right.
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Indeed, it isn't right. People seem to forget that socialism was invented in the mid-19th century and capitalism not long before that. Yet people somehow organized societies, including economic activities, before AD 1700.

To say that our country is half-socialist and half-capitalist is to me a gross oversimplification. It's what you get when you try to cram real world things into invented paradigms. What we have is basically mercantilism.

(10-12-2012, 02:57 AM)MorganHiver Wrote: What's more evil? Abortion or allowing those suffering to continue to suffer and eventually die?

Is this a serious question? Abortion. Hands down.
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#44
Abortion is an intrinsic evil.

Nuclear War is not.

Find out what "intrinsic" means.
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#45
(10-12-2012, 11:46 AM)rbjmartin Wrote: Nuclear war does not discriminate against born and unborn. It kills every pregnant woman including their unborn children.

Yes I agree... and it kills unbaptized as well as baptized. I venture to guess that most citizens of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were unbaptized. The first half of the 20th century saw two world wars, communism, nazism, and atomic bombs dropped. The bloodiest century ever.  A total disregard for human life and this was BEFORE abortion was legal.. So my reasoning is, if we don't care about the human beings that are already here, then why should we care about the human beings who aren't here yet? People usually reverse that logic by asking why should we care for already living human beings if we don't care for the unborn. But I see it the other way around. 
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#46
(10-12-2012, 12:54 PM)Old Salt Wrote: Abortion is an intrinsic evil.

Nuclear War is not.

Find out what "intrinsic" means.

Actually, it is.  Under no circumstance can it fulfill the requirements of a just tactic in war. It is intrinsically evil.
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#47
(10-12-2012, 12:59 PM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(10-12-2012, 11:46 AM)rbjmartin Wrote: Nuclear war does not discriminate against born and unborn. It kills every pregnant woman including their unborn children.

Yes I agree... and it kills unbaptized as well as baptized. I venture to guess that most citizens of Nagasaki and Hiroshima were unbaptized. The first half of the 20th century saw two world wars, communism, nazism, and atomic bombs dropped. The bloodiest century ever.  A total disregard for human life and this was BEFORE abortion was legal.. So my reasoning is, if we don't care about the human beings that are already here, then why should we care about the human beings who aren't here yet? People usually reverse that logic by asking why should we care for already living human beings if we don't care for the unborn. But I see it the other way around. 

I agree. Also from a purely subjective perspective, it is understandable that some would make the mistake of valuing the lives of the born (with whom you can interact) over the unborn (whom you cannot see). Not saying that it's right (ALL abortion is clearly gravely evil), but it's understandable if one does not have a proper understanding of what's going on inside the womb. For those whom we can see and who can express their own desire to live, there is even less of an excuse for their indiscriminate killing, because they are so obviously human.
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#48
(10-12-2012, 11:59 AM)Old Salt Wrote: THE FIVE NON-NEGOTIABLE ISSUES

These five issues are called non-negotiable because they concern actions that are always morally wrong and must never be promoted by the law.

I would add torture to the list.
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#49
When I asked what was more evil, I wasn't referring to just the individuals who are suffering from illness. I was actually referring to everything that capitalists stand for, such as corporate bailouts, extra low, or even non-existent, tax for the rich. We're taught that the rich will not enter heaven, and the Jesus forcefully cleared the temple of money hungry businessmen. But then we have the conservative Christians that basically are those money hungry businessmen. So, which is it? Vote as a rich man, even if you are poor, and let greed agendas flourish (which ultimately hurts the majority of the population) or vote with the intentions of spreading the wealth a bit and but end up letting other evils in?

Which is really the lesser evil? Abortion or the destruction of society (school cuts = the poor/middle class not being able to contribute to society...less doctors, less inventors and so on). Both sound equally evil to me.
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#50
(10-12-2012, 12:54 PM)Old Salt Wrote: Abortion is an intrinsic evil.

Nuclear War is not.

Find out what "intrinsic" means.

The Catholic Church condemns total war, by whatever means it is carried out.
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