Voting as a Catholic is CONFUSING!
#51
(10-12-2012, 02:58 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: Which is really the lesser evil? Abortion or the destruction of society (school cuts = the poor/middle class not being able to contribute to society...less doctors, less inventors and so on). Both sound equally evil to me.

I agree with the general sentiment. The idea that a candidate's position on abortion is the only thing that really matters seems foolish, and it is ultimately ineffective anyway. Plenty of conservative Christians vote Republican no matter what because of the abortion issue, but have they really made much progress?
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#52
(10-12-2012, 03:04 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(10-12-2012, 02:58 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: Which is really the lesser evil? Abortion or the destruction of society (school cuts = the poor/middle class not being able to contribute to society...less doctors, less inventors and so on). Both sound equally evil to me.

I agree with the general sentiment. The idea that a candidate's position on abortion is the only thing that really matters seems foolish, and it is ultimately ineffective anyway. Plenty of conservative Christians vote Republican no matter what because of the abortion issue, but have they really made much progress?

I agree that the narrow focus on abortion alone does not lead to the desired results. That's because abortion is one brick in an edifice of wicked values. You cannot hope to curb or stop abortions just by concentrating on abortion. Although I'm not crazy about Cardinal Bernadin, to some degree I agree with his notion of a "consistent ethic of life." There is clearly a "culture of death" at work in our nation and most of the Western world, and both Republicans and Democrats are contributing to this culture, sometimes in different ways, but often in the same ways.

Think of the culture of death as the gates of a demonic fortress. You will not knock down the gates by firing rifle shots at it, even if they are focused on the same spot consistently. What you need is a battering ram to bring it all down. The Faith is our battering ram. No number of focused political attacks on single issues will bring down those gates. We must engage the enemy with blunt force via uncompromising adherence to the moral law and faithful defense of the rights of God.
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#53
What does nuclear war have to do with the topic at hand? Perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention, but I haven't heard either candidate express eagerness to deploy a nuclear bomb; in fact, I'm not sure the parties differ much on this issue.

But for what it's worth, these are the six “current and fundamental problems, some involving opposition to intrinsic evils and others raising serious moral questions” that the USCCB added to their voters' guide this year:

1. abortion and threats to the lives and dignity of the vulnerable, sick or unwanted
2. threats to Catholic ministries, including health care, education and social services, to violate their consciences or stop serving those in need
3. intensifying efforts to redefine marriage
4. unemployment, poverty and debt
5. immigration
6. wars, terror and violence, particularly in the Middle East


(10-12-2012, 02:58 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: Which is really the lesser evil? Abortion or the destruction of society (school cuts = the poor/middle class not being able to contribute to society...less doctors, less inventors and so on). Both sound equally evil to me.

Pure hyperbole. It is highly questionable that four years of Romney will "destroy society" anymore than four more years of Pres. Obama would.


(10-12-2012, 05:12 AM)tridentinist Wrote: Obama is evil incarnate, whom history will rank with Nero, Caligula, Attila the Hun, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Idi Amin.

More hyperbole, and an insult to all those perfectly able statesmen (except Caligula, I suppose).


(10-12-2012, 09:22 AM)Thomas58 Wrote: Monopolies are very hard to come by in a competitive free market. Most of the monopolies that exist or that ever existed were set up or protected by government: notice the Post Office (which is yet once more broke), utility companies, phone and cable TV companies, etc. So in reality it is not the free market which creates most of the monopolies, but rather, government intervention into the free market that creates them.

Save the Post Office, these are all natural monopolies due to the huge up-front capital investment required. It is right for the government to take over those natural monopolies that society judges are necessary services (such as water).

An obvious example of an existing monopoly that is not a natural monopoly is DeBeers and diamonds. But, I'm out of my depth here.

Oh, and of course "monopolies are very hard to come by in a competitive free market." Heh.


(10-12-2012, 11:11 AM)rbjmartin Wrote: Ryan's approach IS wrong because it causes public scandal.

I hadn't thought of this. You are right.
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#54
(10-12-2012, 05:28 PM)m.PR Wrote: What does nuclear war have to do with the topic at hand? Perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention, but I haven't heard either candidate express eagerness to deploy a nuclear bomb; in fact, I'm not sure the parties differ much on this issue.

m.PR, I brought it up because I strongly believe that military interventions in Syria and/or Iran could bring us dangerously close to conflict with the Russians and Chinese, which would inevitably result in nuclear war.
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#55
(10-12-2012, 09:10 AM)Pilgrim Wrote: Wise words, OC.  But how do we do it when the entire culture is so manifestly against us?


One person at a time. The Mass Media won't be on our side until the majority are.  Women have a huge roll in this -- so many women believe that pro-life is a man's position and that women do not hold it.  Ladies -- we need to sick up for the sacredness of all life and for the sacred gift the Lord has given us with our ability to bring forth new life.

Just living life with a large Taditional family is a beautiful testimony to what we stand for -- even before children enter into the picture.  A good friend of mine used to find men threatening, marriage scary, etc, due to being from a broken home.  Watching our courtship and marriage changed her mind.

People are sheep in a lot of ways.  Peer pressure (the good kind) can work to our advantage as well.  It won't happen overnight, but it can happen.
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#56
It's not just that Obama is proabortion, ther eis the question of the contraception mandate. which requires most Catholic charities and institutions to fund the gratis accesibility to artificial contraception (which incidently is gravely sinful) The bishops have said that this would effectively remove catholic charities and institutions from the public domain. Under the contraceptive mandate all truly catholic institutions would likely close or lose their status as catholic institutions.  Cry( Cry( Cry(
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#57
(10-12-2012, 03:04 PM)Crusading Philologist Wrote:
(10-12-2012, 02:58 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: Which is really the lesser evil? Abortion or the destruction of society (school cuts = the poor/middle class not being able to contribute to society...less doctors, less inventors and so on). Both sound equally evil to me.

I agree with the general sentiment. The idea that a candidate's position on abortion is the only thing that really matters seems foolish, and it is ultimately ineffective anyway. Plenty of conservative Christians vote Republican no matter what because of the abortion issue, but have they really made much progress?

No biggie.  Just shooting a cattle prod through the heads of innocent babies.  We shouldn't make too big of a deal of that though.  Best to compartmentalize it alongside other matters that don't directly deal with the slaughter of thousands of innocents every day like taxes and what we're going to do with PBS.
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#58
I tend to think that unjust wars that destabilize entire regions and affect the lives of millions of people and institutionalized usury are also relevant when making voting decisions, but perhaps that's just a personal eccentricity of mine.
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#59
(10-15-2012, 04:36 AM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: I tend to think that unjust wars that destabilize entire regions and affect the lives of millions of people and institutionalized usury are also relevant when making voting decisions, but perhaps that's just a personal eccentricity of mine.

I agree. And there are many secondary effects to war that most people do not consider. There is the sowing of hatred and the state of the souls of combatants, who may die in mortal sin due to these feelings of hatred. There is the generational hatred that will be learned by those who suffer the injustice of having their countrymen killed and their infrastructure destroyed. And there is the perception that the source of all these injustices is the "Christian" West, which scandalizes the Muslim world and damages possibilities for evangelization.

I believe it's no coincidence that American intervention in Iraq has led to the virtual destruction of the Church there. The same thing is currently happening at the hands of the Syrian rebels, yet both presidential candidates seem to be in favor of supporting those who would ethnically cleanse that ancient Christian community. So our foreign policy is effectively weakening the Church in many parts of the world. Can there be a graver evil than this?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comm...10699.html

Quote:"...for the two million plus Syrian followers of Christ, whose lineage goes back 2000 years to St Paul’s proselytising in the first century AD, these are especially desperate times. Ethnic cleansing is an ugly phrase, but that's just what is going on right now for Christians in Syria. The unspeakable truth now is that the sizeable Christian communities in war-torn Syria are at greater threat of ethnic cleansing from their ancestral homes than has been the case for generations — often at the hands of the self-styled freedom fighters so feted by the Western press."
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#60
(10-15-2012, 04:36 AM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: I tend to think that unjust wars that destabilize entire regions and affect the lives of millions of people and institutionalized usury are also relevant when making voting decisions, but perhaps that's just a personal eccentricity of mine.

Never disagreed with you at all.

Though, even the deadliest recent American war didn't kill 4,000+ a day, every day.
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