The ghetto clearings
#11
The little I know. if it happened in the UK, anywhere it was probably the Fabian Society. The videos are about American social engineering, but that doesn't mean that British or Scotish engineers didn't do the same.there.

tim
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#12
I watched the introductory video. 

Jones doesn't explain how the race riots started.  Does anyone here know how the Catholics were made to identify first with their ethnicity and second with their faith? 

I understand the world wars as having divided people, and I know we're a fallen race, but it still doesn't make sufficient sense to me.

If the answer is that resentment was created by giving the blacks opportunities that no one else had, then that would answer my question.  Is that what happened?  He doesn't really make that clear, except later where he talks about that Mohammed guy trying to extort money from various 'white' people who supposedly enslaved his forebears.  That's really funny!  Especially how unsuccessful he was with the Italians!
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#13
Urban renewal is what displaced my family north of Boston.  We had a section called "Little Canada" because it was mostly people whose parents/grandparents/great-grandparents had come down from Quebec(mostly) to the milltown to have work.  Life revolved around the Church and there were small subsections.  Just two to three blocks away and it was almost like you were in another neighborhood.  So many kids, that you could be an outsider even if you just moved from three blocks away as my father tells it.
  In the mid-60's, they government took the neighborhood down, college and few businesses eventually ended up there as well as some condos and a large secondary road.  The people moved to the other sections of the city, but many were able to get out into the surrounding suburbs.  It, and VII moreso, IMO, killed the local Catholic Church.  It's rectory and my high school are now apartments and the church is trying to be sold by a developer who thought he would make condos out of it but couldn't pull it off. 

Joe
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#14
(10-13-2012, 01:14 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: Jones doesn't explain how the race riots started. Does anyone here know how the Catholics were made to identify first with their ethnicity and second with their faith?  

In the book, he talks about the Sojourner Truth project. It was an urban renewal project where a Catholic ethnic community was demolished in order to build "better" housing for them. However, with the start of World War II, and the housing needs of the blacks that were moving up north due to the war effort, the new housing went to blacks instead of the Catholic ethnics it was supposed to be for. That caused one riot.

Another riot the book describes was when a black family moved to a Polish neighborhood in south side Chicago. By this time, the pattern of blacks displacing ethnics in urban neighborhoods was well-established (someone once said a mixed neighborhood is the period of time between when the first black family moves into a neighborhood and when the last white family moves out), so the Polish were up in arms.

He also talks about how Martin Luther King Jr. was invited up north basically to stir up trouble, but I didn't finish reading this part (it's a big book!).

As to your question, it's a complex issue. In the United States, I would say that it had a lot to do with the huge number of immigrants and its lumpiness (that is, dozens of Irish at once instead of a few French here, a few Spanish there, and so on). These immigrant groups created their own neighborhoods and parishes. Though the ethnic parish was considered a temporary measure by most bishops, you still got crazy arrangements where a Polish parish church would be a block away from an Irish parish church, for example (see the FSSP South Bend community, Ss. Hedwig and Patrick) - which tells you just how much in concert these ethnic parishes were.

Here, I think Jones contradicts himself. On the one hand, he (rightly) criticizes the decline of the parish as geographic unit and the rise of the parish as affinity group. On the other, he praises the ethnic parishes as the only reasonable arrangement possible. Yet, I cannot help but see the national ethnic parish as the natural precursor of the parish as affinity group.

Two other things.

One. The classic book on suburbanization is Crabgrass Frontier by Kenneth T. Jackson. It talks about a lot of the things E. Michael Jones says, without the ethnic cleansing component.

[Image: 51uW0dR1rEL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-stic..._OU01_.jpg]
http://www.amazon.com/Crabgrass-Frontier...lfboutique

Two. Slum clearance happened, and is happening, in other countries, but I don't think it has had an anti-Catholic twist outside the Anglo world. The vast suburban middle class is pretty much unique to the United States.
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#15
Another question: if a person was a first-born American prot, from a family of immigrants from a tiny prot country, living before WW I, and they converted to the Catholic faith, where would they have gone to Mass?  It sounds like the Irish parishes were the only English speaking ones, and they would have treated this convert as an outsider because they weren't Irish.  Is that right?
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#16
Per,
  The problem lies in the framing of that question. In the talk Jones explains ethnicity from the Greek ethnos or country. Today in the US because of the lie of multi-culturalism it's seen as racist to not want your county to be invaded by new people. Ethnicity is an extension of the family, nuclear to extended, to my ethnic group. It is basic. The question should be why did they push them into our ethnic areas without consulting us.

In Chicago Cabrini-Green was built to irradicate a very tough Sicilian neighborhood in about 1940. Those living there were given first chance at the apartments, blacks next. There were two famous Servite Churchs there St. Philip Neri, and St. Philip Benizi, which was demolished immediately to build these slums.It didn't take long to push out the Sicilians and turn it entirely black. Then it was a short hop to the squalor and violent black ghetto it became known as "the Greens". No mention of it being named for Mother Cabrini because blacks ain't Catholics. Eventually demolishing St. Philip Neri too, and as an added bonus St. Dominics a half mile away.

My uncle Frank owned a saloon right there, and me and my brother were pressed into help him at times. The saloon had an elevator in the sidewalk covered by steel doors. The beer trucks loaded the beer into the elevator and it went down and we unloaded it. Like Sippy peanut butter said I was there. it was dangerous and my uncle's saloon was gone, I'd go for hot dogs at Sammee's, a black ethnic hot dog stand right there, where snipers used to shoot white people from the buildings. Really great Chicago kosher dogs with all the stuff and home made fries to boot.

This is to give a glimpse at the falsity of the notion that the Catholic ethnics had a flaw, maybe racism. Ethnos means country and they were defending their country from an invasion just like when the Mohammedans invaded Europe resulting in the Crusades. They destroyed the Churches just like the mohammedans, and later killed white interlopers that came along.

Maybe Adam will explain it more in a scholaly fashion, but I hope I explained a little.
tim
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#17
Were the blacks really 'just like the Mohammedans'?  Snipers, etc.?  I didn't know that.  I wonder why Jones didn't make that point.
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#18
(10-13-2012, 04:27 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: Another question: if a person was a first-born American prot, from a family of immigrants from a tiny prot country, living before WW I, and they converted to the Catholic faith, where would they have gone to Mass?  It sounds like the Irish parishes were the only English speaking ones, and they would have treated this convert as an outsider because they weren't Irish.  Is that right?

I am sure they would go to what Catholic church that was their ethnicity. I imagine any Catholic would be welcome in an Irish Church, except if you were English (understandably). It's not like people were barred at the door if you weren't the right nationality.

Remember that these people that came over to America, didn't do so to give up or abandon their heritage. For example, the Irish were facing a slow genocide by the english, many were faced with the choice of moving to a foreign land or death. They arrive in a totally new country, vulnerable and naive to those that would take advantage of newcomers. The ethnic groups would band together for protection, comfort, and a similar faith. Ethnic parishes were a natural extension of the ghetto. It was a way to preserve their heritage that they loved so much. Knowing who you are, and where you come from, is a vital part of one's identity. I grew up learning about how strong my ancestors were in defending their faith at all costs. And also the shame it would bring to my people should I ever give it up. Knowing where I came from is an essential part of my make up that grounds me and makes me what I am.
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#19
(10-13-2012, 06:31 PM)GeorgeT Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 04:27 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: Another question: if a person was a first-born American prot, from a family of immigrants from a tiny prot country, living before WW I, and they converted to the Catholic faith, where would they have gone to Mass?  It sounds like the Irish parishes were the only English speaking ones, and they would have treated this convert as an outsider because they weren't Irish.  Is that right?

I am sure they would go to what Catholic church that was their ethnicity. I imagine any Catholic would be welcome in an Irish Church, except if you were English (understandably). It's not like people were barred at the door if you weren't the right nationality.

Remember that these people that came over to America, didn't do so to give up or abandon their heritage. For example, the Irish were facing a slow genocide by the english, many were faced with the choice of moving to a foreign land or death. They arrive in a totally new country, vulnerable and naive to those that would take advantage of newcomers. The ethnic groups would band together for protection, comfort, and a similar faith. Ethnic parishes were a natural extension of the ghetto. It was a way to preserve their heritage that they loved so much. Knowing who you are, and where you come from, is a vital part of one's identity. I grew up learning about how strong my ancestors were in defending their faith at all costs. And also the shame it would bring to my people should I ever give it up. Knowing where I came from is an essential part of my make up that grounds me and makes me what I am.


Sorry. my mistake, the above post is mine, not Mr. T's, I didn't realize he was logged on.
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#20
(10-13-2012, 06:36 PM)verenaerin Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 06:31 PM)GeorgeT Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 04:27 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: Another question: if a person was a first-born American prot, from a family of immigrants from a tiny prot country, living before WW I, and they converted to the Catholic faith, where would they have gone to Mass?  It sounds like the Irish parishes were the only English speaking ones, and they would have treated this convert as an outsider because they weren't Irish.  Is that right?

I am sure they would go to what Catholic church that was their ethnicity. I imagine any Catholic would be welcome in an Irish Church, except if you were English (understandably). It's not like people were barred at the door if you weren't the right nationality.

Remember that these people that came over to America, didn't do so to give up or abandon their heritage. For example, the Irish were facing a slow genocide by the english, many were faced with the choice of moving to a foreign land or death. They arrive in a totally new country, vulnerable and naive to those that would take advantage of newcomers. The ethnic groups would band together for protection, comfort, and a similar faith. Ethnic parishes were a natural extension of the ghetto. It was a way to preserve their heritage that they loved so much. Knowing who you are, and where you come from, is a vital part of one's identity. I grew up learning about how strong my ancestors were in defending their faith at all costs. And also the shame it would bring to my people should I ever give it up. Knowing where I came from is an essential part of my make up that grounds me and makes me what I am.


Sorry. my mistake, the above post is mine, not Mr. T's, I didn't realize he was logged on.

Where would an English person go then?  Just wondering, because my parents are both from a tiny prot country and for them to convert would be like getting them to agree to leave their heritage behind.  You can count on one hand the number of ethnic Estonian Catholic priests in the whole world, and neither of them live nearby!
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