Poll: The Problems in the Church Today are Due Mainly to: (Please read OP for details)
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Crisis: Where Does the Blame Lie?
#1
Ok, so someone recommended that we have a poll on FE like the one Fr Z has on his blog.  So here it is. 

The first option is that VII itself is the problem, and I'd also like to say that if you feel that the NO Missae is the main cause of the crisis, vote this option.  I did not put it as an option (to vote that the NO is the cause of the crisis) because I'm sure anyone who believes that VII is wrong per se would agree that the NO is the liturgy of the council, or at least that since the council preceded the NO there is a causative relation.  Please note you think contribute to the crisis the most.

The second option is for those who think that any problems with VII rely only on the modern clergy's misinterpretation, misrepresentation or abuse of the said documents.  This vote means you believe VII is free of any and all error and all documents are 100% Catholic.  It would be very interesting to hear just exactly what documents people think are mishandled the most.  I've read things on which documents are problematic in themselves and why, but never anything focusing on a particular misinterpretation.  Think of it as evangelization, the way that we explain to people common misconceptions about Catholicism.  Explain to trads the common misconceptions about the council.

The third option is for those who do not believe the Church is in any outstanding crisis. 

The fourth option is if you think that there is another reason for the crisis, but that other reason is NOT the NO (see option 1 for the reason why).

Posters are allowed to change their votes, though results will only be shown to those who have voted.

More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#2
I voted the first option.  I think that if there was to be one document over the others that contributes to the crisis it would be Dignitatis Humanae.  There are obviously many, many problems within the Church but if we were to find one problem from which the others proceed, I would say that it would be the same problem that we find in most of modernity, the replacement of God with man and the absolution of man from his responsibility to God.  DH elevates man's dignity to something that he has of his own, instead of dignity being found in his being a creature of God and a manifestation of His glory.  This new dignity gives man the right to behave "according to his own religious impulse" instead of according to the way God has divinely revealed. 
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#3
Everyone should know where I stand.

The problematic documents are Lumen Gentium (collegiality, subsistit in/Frankenchurch), Dignitatis Humanae (religious liberty), Unitatis Redintegratio (ecumenism), Nostra Aetate (heretical and erroneous notions on the Jews and Muslims), Ad Gentes Divinitus (cooperation with "missionaries" of false sects), and Gaudium et Spes (error concerning the ends of marriage, and the relation of the Church to the world).
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#4
(10-12-2012, 07:23 PM)Phillipus Iacobus Wrote: Everyone should know where I stand.

The problematic documents are Lumen Gentium (collegiality, subsistit in/Frankenchurch), Dignitatis Humanae (religious liberty), Unitatis Redintegratio (ecumenism), Nostra Aetate (heretical and erroneous notions on the Jews and Muslims), Ad Gentes Divinitus (cooperation with "missionaries" of false sects), and Gaudium et Spes (error concerning the ends of marriage, and the relation of the Church to the world).

I don't think anyone who votes the first option would disagree with your thoughts.  But are you able to pick one document over the others?  Just curious.
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
Reply
#5
For me, the most problematic and telling of the documents is DH.
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#6
For me it is the novus ordo mass.  The Mass is central to the Church, the main source of grace, and the re-enactment of Christ's sacrifice - it brings to us Christ himself as heavenly food.  It is what best teaches us our faith. Many saints (and Catholics in general) have done without reading the documents of the Church, but none have done without the Mass.  The novus ordo mass is a corruption of the true Mass, with the resulting loss of grace and understanding of the faith that could well be the cause of many problems in the Church.
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#7
I vote for the worst option of all: all of the above. To modify C, the problems in the Church today are worse, yes. But still quite similar to problems going back to the 19th century, if not the Reformation.
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#8
It's interesting that this poll is going the way it is despite the fact that many posters claim that this forum is being overrun by "neocaths."
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#9
(10-13-2012, 12:58 AM)Crusading Philologist Wrote: It's interesting that this poll is going the way it is despite the fact that many posters claim that this forum is being overrun by "neocaths."

Give it time, obstinate contrarian. 

The poll asking where FEs went to Mass was initially favored by the traditionalists, and was soon overrun with neocaths.  As was the other poll mith posted...  the sede one?  Or something.
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#10
I think the blame lies with things that happened long before any of these options.
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