Poll: The Problems in the Church Today are Due Mainly to: (Please read OP for details)
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Crisis: Where Does the Blame Lie?
#11
I voted option 1.

I think the most problematic document is Unitatis Redintegratio, for these reasons:

The concept of "imperfect communion" -- as applied to heretics and schismatics -- is very dangerous.  I understand what the document is getting at:  that in our baptism we share something fundamental with other Christians, which is surely true.  But it's too easy to read about "imperfect communion" and misinterpret it to conclude that being part of the one true Church is not a matter of life and death.

Later in the document it says that theology should be learned by both priests and laity in an "ecumenical" way, instead of in a "polemical" way.  Again, I understand that by trying to encourage dialogue, the idea was that we can be all friendly and chat our way to full communion (i.e. conversion).  But in practice, this focus on commonalities -- instead of the critical differences that set us apart from other Christians -- has resulted in a "lowest common denominator" way of thinking; instead of converting the heretics, we have "protestantized" ourselves.

Ecumenism has proven to be a (the) major pastoral mistake.  The flaws of the Novus Ordo -- both in conception and in its abuses -- are a direct consequence of having fostered an ecumenical perspective in the Church.
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#12
(10-13-2012, 01:47 AM)cgraye Wrote: I think the blame lies with things that happened long before any of these options.

I would have picked this if it were an option.
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#13
(10-13-2012, 09:37 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 01:47 AM)cgraye Wrote: I think the blame lies with things that happened long before any of these options.

I would have picked this if it were an option.

Same here. It all seems to stem from the same heresies of the past, and being unable to trust Christ through the Chair of Peter.
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#14
(10-13-2012, 01:41 AM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: The poll asking where FEs went to Mass was initially favored by the traditionalists, and was soon overrun with neocaths.  As was the other poll mith posted...  the sede one?  Or something.

You are still referring to trads on FE who disagree with you neocaths.  No matter how many times Vox says that posters should use the definition from the FE site, you just won't listen.  For you  "trad = people who agree with CC". 
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#15
From everything that I have read [The 16 Documents themselves, Romano Amerios work "Iota Unum", the Rhine flows into the Tiber,} all which are by first hand witness's
and
what many priests have told me, and with much prayer, it seems option one nails it.

While it does seem that there were problems in the institutional Church since the revolution of Luther, the dam broke in 1962-1965.

DH, I believe was the main document that overtly broke with previous Church teaching.

The following is a very good exposition of this problem by Louis Verrechio:



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#16
(10-13-2012, 09:58 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 01:41 AM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: The poll asking where FEs went to Mass was initially favored by the traditionalists, and was soon overrun with neocaths.  As was the other poll mith posted...  the sede one?  Or something.

You are still referring to trads on FE who disagree with you neocaths.  No matter how many times Vox says that posters should use the definition from the FE site, you just won't listen.  For you  "trad = people who agree with CC". 

No jayne he's referring to neocats as neocats
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#17
The way I see it.

No Vatican II
No documents. 

No documents
No ambiguous text.

No ambiguous text
No misinterpretation.

No misinterpretation
No massive rupture.

No massive rupture
No massive crises in the church.
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#18
(10-13-2012, 10:33 AM)Might_4_Right Wrote: The way I see it.

No Vatican II
No documents. 

No documents
No ambiguous text.

No ambiguous text
No misinterpretation.

No misinterpretation
No massive rupture.

No massive rupture
No massive crises in the church.

That's a pretty good and concise breakdown of the situation. 
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#19
(10-13-2012, 10:20 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 09:58 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 01:41 AM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: The poll asking where FEs went to Mass was initially favored by the traditionalists, and was soon overrun with neocaths.  As was the other poll mith posted...  the sede one?  Or something.

You are still referring to trads on FE who disagree with you neocaths.  No matter how many times Vox says that posters should use the definition from the FE site, you just won't listen.  For you  "trad = people who agree with CC". 

No jayne he's referring to neocats as neocats

He is talking about people who call themselves trads, fit the FE definition of trad, and post here regularly.  It is offensive and petty, as well as dishonest, to keep on calling these people neocaths. 

What is wrong with you people who keep doing this?  Don't you care that you are ignoring the forum owner?  Don't you care about all the bad feeling it stirs up?  You have tantrums when people use terminology that you disapprove of, but insist on saying whatever you like.  Because you are the "true trads" and rules and courtesy are for other people. :crazy:
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#20
(10-13-2012, 12:25 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 10:20 AM)Mithrandylan Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 09:58 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(10-13-2012, 01:41 AM)CollegeCatholic Wrote: The poll asking where FEs went to Mass was initially favored by the traditionalists, and was soon overrun with neocaths.  As was the other poll mith posted...  the sede one?  Or something.

You are still referring to trads on FE who disagree with you neocaths.  No matter how many times Vox says that posters should use the definition from the FE site, you just won't listen.  For you  "trad = people who agree with CC". 

No jayne he's referring to neocats as neocats

He is talking about people who call themselves trads, fit the FE definition of trad, and post here regularly.   It is offensive and petty, as well as dishonest, to keep on calling these people neocaths. 

What is wrong with you people who keep doing this?  Don't you care that you are ignoring the forum owner?  Don't you care about all the bad feeling it stirs up?  You have tantrums when people use terminology that you disapprove of, but insist on saying whatever you like.  Because you are the "true trads" and rules and courtesy are for other people. :crazy:

A neo conservative is a neo conservative. George W. Bush and Karl Rove are neo cons (compared to, say, Robert Taft). Just because they say they are conservative doesnt make it so.

I am not trying to challenge the forum rules or the forum owner, but calling it as it is. Also, I am not calling into question anyone's Catholicity (unless there is some public pertinacity).
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