Surplice under a dalmatic/chasuble?
#1
I understand that the surplice essentially is a shortened version of the  alb, and that it forms the choir dress of lower ranking clergy. I know the surplice could also be used under a cope in functions such as vespers/ asperges, benediction. I  was wondering at what times can a surplice be used under a dalmatic, in regards to subdeacons and deacons?

Maybe I am mistaken, but these deacons present in the Econe ordinations SSPX  really do not seem to be wearing albs:

[Image: -10373-440x293.jpg]

Looking at 2:40 and 3:08 in this movie production of the Puccini opera Tosca, one can see the deacons accompanying the bishop in his celebration of a Te Deum vested in a like manner.
[video=youtube]8T8cBrnvAos[/video]

The beginning of this video depicts the famous Dominican inquisitor Br. Heinrich Kramer wearing a surplice under his chasuble:

[video=youtube]BEqRUEjUvYU&feature=relmfu[/video]




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#2
(10-12-2012, 10:46 PM)Christknight104 Wrote: [Image: -10373-440x293.jpg]

This juxtaposition of dalmatics and lace surplices is hideous. Destroy them.
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#3
Maybe they ran out of albs and had to make do as best they could.
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#4
(10-12-2012, 10:52 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(10-12-2012, 10:46 PM)Christknight104 Wrote: [Image: -10373-440x293.jpg]

This juxtaposition of dalmatics and lace surplices is hideous. Destroy them.

Meh, I like it very much.
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#5
For historical and aesthetic reasons, I agree with HK.  Surplice under dalmatic? Burn it with fire.

But what about the rubrical question? Don't the traditional rubrics say alb goes under the dalmatic (or the tunicle, or the chasuble)?

Surplice can be worn in other situations when the dalmatic/tunicle/chasuble isn't used (with purple stole to hear confessions, for servers, with stole and cope for vespers) ... but I thought the rule was always alb otherwise.
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#6
The thing about Tosca is that each production can use whatever costumes they like. It depends on the company, and not necessarily loyalty to rubrics. This goes for films too.
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#7
(10-12-2012, 11:41 PM)TraditionalistThomas Wrote: Meh, I like it very much.

Why? They're dressed like an old lady's dinner table. Furthermore, the sacred vestments are supposed to cover a cleric's street dress entirely. The cassock is still street dress, so it's really no different than throwing a surplice and dalmatic over a clerical suit.
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#8
When a Bishop officiates "Pontifically" (i.e. within his diocesan jurisdiction or with the permission of the local ordinary) at a Solemn Pontifical Mass at the Throne, the Pontifical retinue includes two assistant deacons (also known as Deacons of Honor) who are traditionally vested in amice, surplice and dalmatic. This is the prevailing custom in Europe, but albs instead of surplices for assistant deacons is a long-standing custom here in the 'States.

Manual of Ceremonies by Aurelius Stehle (Pg. 91)

and The Baltimore Ceremonial (pg. 318).

Here is a Mass celebrated from the Throne by Bishop Rifan in NYC with his two Deacons of Honor:

[Image: 09_06_19_SacredHeartMass03.JPG]

To be honest ... I question the licety of any SSPX Bishop using assistant Deacons in any way since they do not exercise ordinary jurisdiction and I think I can safely say that they didn't receive permission from the local ordinary.
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#9
(10-13-2012, 01:47 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(10-12-2012, 11:41 PM)TraditionalistThomas Wrote: Meh, I like it very much.

Why? They're dressed like an old lady's dinner table. Furthermore, the sacred vestments are supposed to cover a cleric's street dress entirely. The cassock is still street dress, so it's really no different than throwing a surplice and dalmatic over a clerical suit.

Haha what a nice comparison!  LOL
I suppose it's especially the lace you dislike, or not?
I agree fully. I never wear lace albs nor suplice. Why should we? It's just looking, well... ermmm... like old ladies  Grin

I think sometimes that the lace is also there because of the style of the other vestments. They are sometimes simply too short, and so a plain white alb can look so... white.
Some dalmatics are really short (and sometimes ugly looking if not preserved properly in the sacristy). And with tall persons it's not in proportion, the same when a 'fat' priest wears a small fiddleback chasuble.
I don't like the modern-style dalmatics too much, but we would never think of wearing a surplice under it...
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#10
kingofspades Wrote:I don't like the modern-style dalmatics too much, but we would never think of wearing a surplice under it...

If you and your ordinary celebrated the traditional rites, then you probably would need to "think about it" eventually. As my post stated, the wearing of a surplice under a dalmatic pertains to Assistant Deacons serving a Pontifical Mass from the Throne. It's not personal preference as in the case of lace vs. plain vs. apparel.
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