Surplice under a dalmatic/chasuble?

[newyorkcatholic]

When a Bishop officiates "Pontifically" (i.e. within his diocesan jurisdiction or with the permission of the local ordinary) at a Solemn Pontifical Mass at the Throne, the Pontifical retinue includes two assistant deacons (also known as Deacons of Honor) who are traditionally vested in amice, surplice and dalmatic. This is the prevailing custom in Europe, but albs instead of surplices for assistant deacons is a long-standing custom here in the 'States.

Manual of Ceremonies by Aurelius Stehle (Pg. 91)

and The Baltimore Ceremonial (pg. 318).

Thanks, Joshua! Glad to know that.

[John_77]

I don't like the modern-style dalmatics too much, but we would never think of wearing a surplice under it...

The modern style is simply a butchered traditional style, and the fabrics they use are horrendous. But don't limit yourself to the "Roman" cut, it's not that traditional either.

A gothic cut:


A renaissance cut that fits with the Borromean chasubles:


Or even this style used by the liturgical movement:


Just avoid the stiff vestments that are supposedly Roman.  :grin:

[John_77]

When a Bishop officiates "Pontifically" (i.e. within his diocesan jurisdiction or with the permission of the local ordinary) at a Solemn Pontifical Mass at the Throne, the Pontifical retinue includes two assistant deacons (also known as Deacons of Honor) who are traditionally vested in amice, surplice and dalmatic. This is the prevailing custom in Europe, but albs instead of surplices for assistant deacons is a long-standing custom here in the 'States.

Manual of Ceremonies by Aurelius Stehle (Pg. 91)

and The Baltimore Ceremonial (pg. 318).

Here is a Mass celebrated from the Throne by Bishop Rifan in NYC with his two Deacons of Honor:


To be honest ... I question the licety of any SSPX Bishop using assistant Deacons in any way since they do not exercise ordinary jurisdiction and I think I can safely say that they didn't receive permission from the local ordinary.

That'd work better with the long medieval surplice, I think. The cotta is simply too short.

[DoktorDespot]

My impression is that circumstances often leave the society in a less than optimal situation when it comes to vestments. That being said, they definitely seem to have a preference for the "roman style" of vestments and lots of lace. I remember seeing a  priest of the society once wearing what appeared to be a surplice, but that was made entirely of a sheer lace like fabric. It was practically see through and quite unattractive.

[kingofspades]

Style of vestments, fabric, isn't it all part of 'liturgical fashion'? A matter of taste?
I see the TLM pictures mostly while priests are wearing 'roman' fiddleback chasubles and the deacon/subdeacon in the same style. And indeed a lot of lace...
Is that really necessary?

I have the feeling that some people make a kind of 'must' of all those elements. Why would it be impossible to celebrate a TLM in a hyper-modern church with modern, 'German style', bronze cross, candlesticks, tabernacle? Wearing modern vestments?

I tell you what: I have traditional Mass sets in all colous, made by a famous Dutch atelier (Stadelmayer), with maniple (!) in a very modern style, wider than gothic. They were made for a church built end 60's, and of course the maniples are still brand new, and esp. the black set, but still... Can I say that they could not be used? Not in my neogotic church maybe, but when I would say a EF Mass in a modern church, (f.e. a Requiem), I would bring that 'modern' black set with me. On the other hand, in a neogotic church, I have the personal feeling that gothic vestments are more in style than a neogothic fiddleback chasuble. I have both, the gothic brand new, the fiddlebacks old ones.
The same with lace. Is lace necessary? No. Under a gothic chasuble, a plain white alb is fine.

Sometimes I think: it's about Mass and concentrate on what is the most important: the content and the prayers. All those ornaments are of course to give honour to the Lord, the sollemnity of the Mass is expressed. But it can also distract. Like churches completely ornated with paintings and polychrome statues and altars, can sometimes be so overwhelming for the eyes, that I prefer wooden altars without polychromy in a church with nice colours but more white walls. For my personal prayer experience, I don't like too many colours.

It's all a matter of taste and balance. Sometimes less is more, and the Middle Ages knew...
Beauty can be simple as f.e the architecture of the Cistercian abbey of Fontenay (http://www.kunsttrip.nl/images/fontenay/HPIM1592.jpg)... In such a church we don't want lace, I assure you.

[rbjmartin]

This juxtaposition of dalmatics and lace surplices is hideous. Destroy them.

HK, don't you know the universal liturgical principle, "more lace, more grace"?

[The_Harlequin_King]

HK, don't you know the universal liturgical principle, "more lace, more grace"?

Ha!

And look at the shape made by the deacon on the left's absurdly stiff dalmatic. It appears as though he's either pregnant, or extremely happy to see someone there.

[Christknight104]

The thing about Tosca is that each production can use whatever costumes they like. It depends on the company, and not necessarily loyalty to rubrics. This goes for films too.

Does the same apply for documentaries, considering that one would believe  at least theoretically that the makers would spend an effort to make sure the vestments are depicted in a correct manner? I ask because I have seen two documentaries depicting priests wearing a surplice under a chasuble. This would demonstrate such irresponsibility on the documentary makers.Then again both documentaries were critical and bias towards the Church, so vestments really are not the focus.

[Christknight104]

When a Bishop officiates "Pontifically" (i.e. within his diocesan jurisdiction or with the permission of the local ordinary) at a Solemn Pontifical Mass at the Throne, the Pontifical retinue includes two assistant deacons (also known as Deacons of Honor) who are traditionally vested in amice, surplice and dalmatic. This is the prevailing custom in Europe, but albs instead of surplices for assistant deacons is a long-standing custom here in the 'States.

Manual of Ceremonies by Aurelius Stehle (Pg. 91)

and The Baltimore Ceremonial (pg. 318).

Thank you Joshua. This is exactly the answer I was looking for.