What's wrong with the traditional Latinist movement
#61
(10-30-2012, 04:56 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: "If we use the image of a body to describe 'belonging' we are limited only to the form of representation as 'member'. Either one is or one is not a member, there are no other possibilities.  One can then ask if the image of the body was too restrictive, since there manifestly existed in reality intermediate degrees of belonging.  The Constitution on the Church found it helpful for this purpose to use the concept of 'the People of God'.  It could describe the relationship of non-Catholic Christians to the Church as being 'in communion' and that of non-Christians as being 'ordered' to the Church where in both cases one relies on the idea of the People of God" (Cardinal Ratzinger, Conference given on 15 September 2001).

In Mystici Corporis, non-Catholic Christians were described as "ordered" in desire to the Church.  It would appear that they have since been promoted to being "in communion" with her, and now non-Christians are "ordered" to her.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/mode...eaning.htm

This is an interesting quote.  I wonder whether His Holiness really meant to imply that an image used by St. Paul and the Fathers could be in any way thought inadequate.  I always thought that "The People of God" as used in V2 was an attempt to apply an Old Testament notion to modern conditions, perhaps to create a sort of new existential authenticity in the face of what some of the Council participants had come to believe was inauthentic Catholic identity.  The problem arises from the fact the People of God is conveyed in the Old Testament in a rather rigid way:  membership, like the membership of apendages to the body, is a function of birth, as well as continued functioning.  Throughout the Old Testament, non-functioning members of the People are expelled from the body as a whole, either juridically (eg, Jezebel) or through divine retribution (the northern kingdom).  What one does not see in the Old Testament is the kind of debate over status that characterizes post Vatican 2 relations with other churches. 
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#62
Warrenton,
Interesting observation.  The following interview, in part, discusses then-Fr. Ratzinger's discovery that St. Augustine had defined the Church as "the People of God."  It was his professor Söhngen who noticed that Pope Pius XII's definition of "Mystical Body of Christ" was not to be found in Scripture.

http://theratzingerforum.yuku.com/sreply...KOrr7-9LTo
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#63
Interesting in that article said he reconciled the two defitions, he didn't reject one for the other.

Anyway, I thought the traditional teaching was that all men are ordered to the Church.  Isn't that what Pius XII meant when talking about common destiny of all men in Summi Pontificatus, or what St. Thomas said when saying Christ is the head of all men (at least until they go to Hell), again, because of this common destiny.

"Hence we must say that if we take the whole time of the world in general, Christ is the Head of all men, but diversely. For, first and principally, He is the Head of such as are united to Him by glory; secondly, of those who are actually united to Him by charity; thirdly, of those who are actually united to Him by faith; fourthly, of those who are united to Him merely in potentiality, which is not yet reduced to act, yet will be reduced to act according to Divine predestination; fifthly, of those who are united to Him in potentiality, which will never be reduced to act; such are those men existing in the world, who are not predestined, who, however, on their departure from this world, wholly cease to be members of Christ, as being no longer in potentiality to be united to Christ."
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4008.htm#article3

I don't think looking at the Church from another angle which also includes more explicit explanations of its relationship with those that may be saved, but are not members (a distinction explicitly developed by St. Robert) as well as including the idea of unity in somethings while being severed in others that St. Augustine develops in this work (end of chapter 1, beginning of chapter 2), is an endeavor contrary to the faith.  The theological deductions involved are using established principles, not rejecting them it seems.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/14081.htm
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#64
(11-14-2012, 10:42 AM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Warrenton,
Interesting observation.  The following interview, in part, discusses then-Fr. Ratzinger's discovery that St. Augustine had defined the Church as "the People of God."  It was his professor Söhngen who noticed that Pope Pius XII's definition of "Mystical Body of Christ" was not to be found in Scripture.

http://theratzingerforum.yuku.com/sreply...KOrr7-9LTo

Thank you for the link.  I had overlooked the Augustinian use of this term, which appears in the City of God.  I need to re-read that and Lumen Gentium again and compare the usage of the image.

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