My in-depth series on the Sarum Mass
#11
When i think of what the 1960s did to the church i want to cry, it ruined the beauty of everything thankfully Our Lord preserved the Latin Mass hopefully it will return to prominence.
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#12
(10-20-2012, 11:52 PM)salus Wrote: Was the Sarum Use in Latin or English?
Latin.
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#13
(10-20-2012, 10:54 PM)MRose Wrote: Are there text readily available, or recordings of, many of the ditched Sequences? I have often wondered about this, having read that most major feasts had Sequences.

By the way, thank you for posting this HK!

You're welcome. Texts are available here in Latin and English translation: http://archive.org/details/sequencesfromsa00wilgoog

Finding musical notation and recordings is a lot more difficult.
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#14
(10-20-2012, 11:05 PM)salus Wrote: Will the Sarum rite ever come back? Or is it a museum piece?

Probably not, though there's no harm in trying. However, the Rite of Braga, Portugal (which some say was influenced by the Sarum Use) was brought back by an Archbishop of Braga in the early 20th century, who made it obligatory for priests in his diocese, even with the approval of Pope Pius XI. It was a short-lived revival thanks to Vatican II, which caused the great majority of priests there to just adopt the Novus Ordo.

(10-20-2012, 11:52 PM)salus Wrote: Was the Sarum Use in Latin or English?

In Latin, except for the bidding prayers.



(10-20-2012, 11:23 PM)Joshua Wrote: Do you know of any trope sheet music for the Kyriale one might be able to still procure, online or otherwise?

I haven't seen any. It's a good question. Groups like Ensemble Organum specialize in reading directly from original medieval manuscripts, so it's not as big an issue to them.
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#15
Hypothetical question here, HK, do you think if Queen Mary would not have died and remained queen England would have been allowed to keep the Sarum Mass or would the 1570 missal have replaced it? Just curious.

Great stuff by the way!
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#16
(10-21-2012, 03:02 AM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: Hypothetical question here, HK, do you think if Queen Mary would not have died and remained queen England would have been allowed to keep the Sarum Mass or would the 1570 missal have replaced it? Just curious.

Great stuff by the way!

Good question. I think the Sarum would've been preserved as a means for the English Church to keep a unique identity while still being in communion with Rome. The English Jesuits adopted the Roman Missal for the sake of being in uniform practice with the Society around the world and because they were very ultramontanist. I doubt the diocesan clergy in England, though, would've cared to adopt the 1570.
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#17
Very interesting HK! Thanks!

What you write about the sermon/announcements/bidding prayer between the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful sounds very logical to me in the order of keeping the liturgy intact. It's a natural 'break' in the whole Mass. The creed can be a kind of acclamation prayer on the Gospel, the only appropriate expression of the heart, believing...

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#18
(10-21-2012, 02:45 AM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(10-20-2012, 11:05 PM)salus Wrote: Will the Sarum rite ever come back? Or is it a museum piece?

Probably not, though there's no harm in trying. However, the Rite of Braga, Portugal (which some say was influenced by the Sarum Use) was brought back by an Archbishop of Braga in the early 20th century, who made it obligatory for priests in his diocese, even with the approval of Pope Pius XI. It was a short-lived revival thanks to Vatican II, which caused the great majority of priests there to just adopt the Novus Ordo.
I know it has been much-talked about in certain circles that the Sarum Rite might be reintroduced via the English Ordinariate. I doubt very much that such will happen, but perhaps there is a chance that a few courageous individual priests will resurrect it?

On another note, HK, did Pugin ever discuss the Sarum Use?
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#19
(10-21-2012, 09:08 PM)MRose Wrote: I know it has been much-talked about in certain circles that the Sarum Rite might be reintroduced via the English Ordinariate. I doubt very much that such will happen, but perhaps there is a chance that a few courageous individual priests will resurrect it?

From what I've heard of the Anglican Ordinariate in England, they actually like the Novus Ordo! Which makes me wonder what the point of having an Ordinariate is in the first place. Maybe they did it just to keep married priests.

As for ordinary Roman Rite priests in England, I'm acquainted with just one who has celebrated Sarum. Unfortunately, it seems to be of interest only to the Oxford/Cambridge crowd, pretty much. Funny enough, the only clergy who have posted links to my blog on theirs have all been Anglican/Anglo-Catholic priests.

Quote:On another note, HK, did Pugin ever discuss the Sarum Use?

I haven't been able to find any direct quotations from Pugin about the Sarum Use, but he designed his churches undoubtedly with the Sarum in mind. I posted the sedilia, for example. He also had the Easter sepulchres. There's no question that Pugin would have liked to see a restoration of Sarum, since he was very zealous about all the things that made English Catholicism unique: not only in architecture and liturgy, but in devotion. He was very attached to the English pre-Reformation saints, especially Augustine of Canterbury.

I'm pleased that a search on Google for Augustus Pugin and Sarum together will have my blog up for the first four hits. Unfortunately, there are pretty much no substantial results after that.
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#20
(10-21-2012, 09:25 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 09:08 PM)MRose Wrote: I know it has been much-talked about in certain circles that the Sarum Rite might be reintroduced via the English Ordinariate. I doubt very much that such will happen, but perhaps there is a chance that a few courageous individual priests will resurrect it?

From what I've heard of the Anglican Ordinariate in England, they actually like the Novus Ordo! Which makes me wonder what the point of having an Ordinariate is in the first place. Maybe they did it just to keep married priests.

As for ordinary Roman Rite priests in England, I'm acquainted with just one who has celebrated Sarum. Unfortunately, it seems to be of interest only to the Oxford/Cambridge crowd, pretty much. Funny enough, the only clergy who have posted links to my blog on theirs have all been Anglican/Anglo-Catholic priests.
There liking the Novus Ordo has a lot to do with Ordinariate politics. The Ordinariates, at least their seed, came from the TAC crowd, but when things really started happening, the FiF crowd got the influence and thus mostly those clergy came over. They were, by and large, already using the Novus Ordo as Anglicans. Which makes their whole Patrimony thing a bit hollow-sounding...

(10-21-2012, 09:25 PM)The_Harlequin_King Wrote:
(10-21-2012, 09:08 PM)MRose Wrote: On another note, HK, did Pugin ever discuss the Sarum Use?

I haven't been able to find any direct quotations from Pugin about the Sarum Use, but he designed his churches undoubtedly with the Sarum in mind. I posted the sedilia, for example. He also had the Easter sepulchres. There's no question that Pugin would have liked to see a restoration of Sarum, since he was very zealous about all the things that made English Catholicism unique: not only in architecture and liturgy, but in devotion. He was very attached to the English pre-Reformation saints, especially Augustine of Canterbury.

I'm pleased that a search on Google for Augustus Pugin and Sarum together will have my blog up for the first four hits. Unfortunately, there are pretty much no substantial results after that.
HK, I think you need to drop these plans for Matrimony, move to England, become a priest, and restore Sarum!
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