Bp. Williamson's Oct. 19, '12, open letter to Bp. Fellay, "On an 'Exclusion'"
(10-29-2012, 05:00 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: loggats,
Do you have the book?  If so, then please see especially p. 45f.  I'd rather not quote it, lest it appear that I'm taking it out of context.

I have copies at home (they're my father's books) - will be sure to check when I'm there... (oh, the suspense)
(10-29-2012, 02:13 PM)Geremia Wrote: Toleration of error is not mercy. Mercy is withholding severer punishments. Condemnations aren't punishments.

Mercy on behalf of the judge is forgiving something due in justice. This can be a complete lifting of the penalty, or just a lessening. He would be justified in acting in strict justice, but he may also act out of mercy for a greater good he sees. All three are valid expressions of a spiritual father, which would be based on the conditions present to him. Often mercy is extended, probably more often than condemnations, as it often was with our blessed Lord, because of a foreseen opportunity for good, namely that good of coming to Christ through love and a free offering of oneself, and not through coercion, which I think we all can agree is a lesser path, resorted to when one would not come by the way of love.
(10-29-2012, 01:30 PM)Scriptorium Wrote: Good for him.
Good for him is right.
Quote: I pray that every Pope does through the grace of God what he judged to be what the Church needs. Just like any family, sometimes mercy is needed, sometimes tough love. The point is that condemnations are not the only medicine available, nor always the best medicine to effect a cure.
What's needed now is justice and it's needed in spades at this point both in the Church and the world more than anything else. We've had a "Dr. Spock-ification" of the Church since John XXIII, and they have behaved as parents who are more interested in becoming a friend to their offspring instead of a parent.
(10-28-2012, 11:15 AM)SaintSebastian Wrote: Just a couple notes about sacking all the bad bishops.  Here are some similar situations and the advice of saints. The first is St. Bernard's advice to Bl. Eugene III on the best way to go about reforming a corrupt and faithless curia and episcopate, the second is St. Peter Damian's defense of St. Leo IX not sacking all the simoniac bishops, and the last is a letter from St. Vincent de Paul to a bishop telling him how to reform his diocese made up of faithless and corrupt clergy and religious:

St. Bernard Wrote:But what can you do? If you suddenly devote yourself completely to this philosophy, although it is not customary for a pope to do so, you will indeed annoy many people. You will be like a person who abandons the footsteps of his ancestors, and will be seen as an affront to them. You will be censured with the common saying, 'Everyone wonders about a person who behaves differently.' It will seem that you only want attention. You cannot suddenly correct every error at once or reduce excesses to moderation. There will be an opportunity at the proper time for you to pursue this little by little, according to the wisdom given you by God. In the meantime, do what you can to utilize other people's evil for good.
On Consideration, Book 1, Ch. IX
[NB: "this philosophy" is the Pope's desire for reform, and the "the footsteps of his ancestors," is his predecessors' indulgence towards all the bad things the clergy were doing]

St. Peter Damian Wrote:"Hence it would be proper that they who are eager to depose all by group action should observe the moderate solution proposed by Innocent, of whom we spoke above.  "As often," he said "as a sin is committed by whole peoples or by a large group, since it cannot be avenged on all because of their great number, one usually lets it go unpunished."
Letter 40 (citing Innocent I, Epistola 17.6)."

St. Vincent de Paul Wrote:And then, after having preached to them by way of example (Our Lord preached in that way for thirty years), he should deal with them graciously and charitably and, in the end, firmly, without however making use of suspensions, interdicts, and excommunications and without depriving them of the exercise of their faculties. That, Sir, is how Our Lord acted. Now, I am firmly convinced that a prelate who acts in this manner will do more good to such persons than all ecclesiastical censures put together. Our Lord and the Saints effected more by suffering than by acting, and it was in this fashion that the blessed Bishop of Geneva [St. Francis de Sales] and, following the latter's example, that the late Bishop of Comminges both sanctified themselves, and brought about the sanctification of thousands of souls.

What I have said to you, Sir, may seem rather strong, but that can't be helped. I feel so profoundly convinced of the truths which Our Lord taught us, both by word and example, that I cannot but see that whatever is done in this way will always prove perfectly successful, and that contrary lines of conduct will prove the reverse. Yes, but they will contemn a prelate who acts like this. That is quite true, and it must be so if we are to honour the life of Our Lord in all His states in our persons, as we do in our various conditions in life. But it is also true, that after having suffered for some time and as much as Our Lord pleases and in union with Our Lord, He will bring to pass that we shall do more good in three years of our life than we should otherwise have done in thirty. But what am I saying? In truth, Sir, I do not think that one can otherwise do any good whatsoever. Rules and regulations may be made without end; censures may be inflicted; the right of hearing confession, of preaching and of collecting alms may be withdrawn, but for all that, no amendment will be produced, and the empire of Jesus Christ will never be spread or preserved in souls by those means--never! God, in past times, armed Heaven and earth against man. Alas! to what profit? And was it not necessary for Him to humble and abase Himself before man to induce His creature to accept the sweet yoke of His empire and sway? And what God with all His power could not do, how can a bishop effect with his? 
Letter 418

This is very interesting.  Thanks!

I don't know if it really applies to BXVI, since he is complicit in the acts of the prelates who exhibit unorthodoxy.
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.

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