Pope, church leaders call for guaranteed health care for all people
#11
Man generally has a duty to sustain his life and bodily integrity, and therefore he must be able to access the means to do so, which includes medical care (John XXIII, Pacem in Terris 11).  Seems logical to me.

Plus, social justice requires each individual to be given what he needs to fulfill his social functions (Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris 51), which seems it would include basic health care, especially since Pius XI says even access to insurance (public or private) is a necessary component of social justice (Divini Redemptoris 52).

The state has a duty to promote and defend the common good, which includes social justice and the well-being of individuals, from what I understand.  Therefore the state can and should intervene when people are being unjustly deprived of the means to maintain their well-being. Of course, the principles of subsidiarity also apply.


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#12
Medical care is amibiguous. If there is specifity, I don't know. I object to the "inalienable right" language, though.
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#13
It is very strange to me to think that people have a right to something that is essentially human technology and the result of human research.  Medicine makes use of natural resources, yes, so there is something to be said for the fair distribution of those resources.  But there is also a process of turning those resources into the actual medicine.  And regarding surgery, it's someone's labor too.  Where does it end?  Does everyone get all the free surgeries they need?  All the medicine?  I just don't understand what principle is being applied here.  Or how it is being applied.

Or if we don't say that people have a right to it, but governments should provide it anyway, because it promotes the common good...maybe, but that seems to raise a lot of questions too.
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#14
(11-01-2012, 02:31 PM)mistman Wrote: I didn't find a single person in Canada who disliked their health care system or said they would prefer the American system. I'm going to take a more extensive trip through Canada and do more research on this. For some reason, countries with national systems seem to like them. I think this is because nationalized systems work, but are they just from a Catholic viewpoint? Since Roman Catholicism isn't an option for countries anymore due to religious "freedom," government programs might be a more viable option, but only in nations with homogeneity of culture. Different cultures have different attitudes towards life and health so this wouldn't work as well in America. It would force a "level" playing field where none exists. So, I don't think the Pope should apply a one size fits all philosophy regarding something like this. We want to honor life, but cultural standards and choices too. I have always refused to opt for health care because I consider it a rip-off. If its time to go, its time to go. So for Obama to force me to get that crap is wrong.

My mother is Canadian and needed immediate surgery for a health problem.  For one year she was dicked around by "specialists" in Canada until she got fed up, went to America, and paid $30,000 to get the problem fixed right away and is now fine.  If she would have waited in Canada, it would have probably taken 3 years and she may have died.  We want our taxes back. 
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#15
I would like to see something like what was once the type of insurance we all had. A policy which covers hospitalization with a deductable based on which policy you buy. One where Doctor Visits can contribute to the deductable but still allow the patient to control how often they go to see the Doctor, in other words not for free.  Prescriptions should be outside of the insurance plan but Pharmacies should be able to import drugs to drve down the insane cost of the rigged drug makers prices.

I have Medicare Advantage because I do not trust the Government at all. This Advantage insurance is being regulated to be like the Government would like it to be. You won't like it. I am harassed with letters, robo-calls, my Doctor being my "life coach", glossy blurbs, and all manner of propaganda. I have had to suffer the death questionaire three years in a row, this is the same one Tammy Duckworth got in trouble for at the VA, where it was being used to "select" which veterans had the best attitude to continue helping. My Advantage insurance through the "best practices panel" in DC now controls my life.

They as in the "panel" through my insurance decided I had type two diabetes even though three Doctors before this have said my sugar is a teeny bit high but not to worry about. They robo-called me and I got hot, it was about 6:00 pm and I told them no, I do not want to get involved in some socialist meeting every week for diabetic old folks to be socialized and boogaloo to the oldies. As she was hanging up she said "okay, that'll go on Your Permanent Record". I lost and now take a new perscription but no one worries about my blood sugar, not my Doctor or the "panel" and I have never been told to monitor it or worry.

Now besides the smart remarks on my annual death questionaire I'm marked as not co-operating with the happy clappy old folks socialization program. This year has been the year of the colonoscopy. There have been commercials with Ozzy Osborne tauting how much he'd love to go to NYC and get colonoscopied. I'll bet he's bisexual. I've received a letter evey month telling me the wonder I'm missing of being roto-rootered by some foreign doctor I do not know. My Doctor and "life coach" while not ordering it on his own has also extolled the wonder of it all. I caved and went. I have been roto-rootered.

Now I'm told I need to have my eyes checked for having had diabetes for two weeks and it's free. I'm sure I'll hear from my Doctor just how wonderful all this is, forget my eyes are fine. Forget the insurance still hasn't paid for the roto-rootering and keep sending me bills. They are all worried about my health and I'm too stupid to understand what's wrong with me. They are wearing me down.

The things I'd like them to address they don't seem to worry about. My sleep apnea stuff has now co-pays which can not be predicted because Congress changes how much they give the insurance each time and bills come after the Congress allocates the funds and then my end is calculated. I just today received the bill for April, May and June, as Congress dragged their feet paying the insurance and they changed the portion they paid so now I need to pay more. Those months were pending and i'm billed after Congress decides to do it's job.

There is so much more and I'm rambling but all of it could be fixed if they would just leave it alone.

tim

tim
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#16
It is not a right if someone else has to be forced to provide it for you. Healthcare is just as much a right as food and water are. Sure you need them to survive, but it is not someone else's obligation to forcefully provide it for you. As a Catholic we should do everything we can to help the poor, our God commands this of us; however, that is voluntary and coercive.
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#17
The last thing the poor want is social JUSTICE.  What they want is social mercy.  In a just world, if you don't work, you die.

A poor person who can't afford medical care should be cared for by the Church.  That is how we always did it.  That is why when you drive through any big city in the USA you'll see a Catholic hospital (or three).  Ever wonder why that was?

There is no justice in stealing money to pay for someone.  Care for the poor is called alms for a reason.  I already quoted the Catholic Social teaching on this.  As far as Pacem in Terras, I don't think that will fly far on a Trad site.

Karl Denninger has written extensively about the medical crisis in these USA.  Someone sent him their receipts for a baby in 1963.  Using the CPI, he calculated that the inflation adjusted cost for a baby including FOUR nights of hospital stay, and all prenatal visits, is $1,000.  They didn't have ultrasound back then, so throw in $50 for an ultrasound.  In reality, with a FOUR night stay, you are probably looking at $10,000.  The difference is that in 1963 you didn't have EMTALA, Medicaid, and Medicare was barely used.  THAT is the cost of getting the government involved.

Do you think most poor people could afford $1,000 for a baby?  How about a 2 night stay and make it $750?  Do you think the local parish could raise the money for the poor parishoner?  Or how about a diocesan program at the local Catholic hospital?  You see, THAT is subsidiarity at work.  And it is Catholic.  Instead the government gets involved and we have basically bankrupted this country.
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#18
I just noticed that the article is from 2010, so this is nothing new. But it's a timely thing to discuss.
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#19
I just read this more thoroughly.  Pretty sick.
Quote: "Justice requires guaranteed universal access to health care,"

Justice?  Do they even know what this means?

Quote:The governments of richer nations with good health care available should practice more solidarity with their own disadvantaged citizens and help developing countries promote health care

Note to the cardinal.  The governments of the "richer" nations are all bankrupt.  In the next few years they will be slashing spending on health care.  Since most of these "richer" nations have eliminated private health care, when the governments are forced to cut, there will be nothing to fall back on.
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#20
Quote: My mother is Canadian and needed immediate surgery for a health problem.  For one year she was dicked around by "specialists" in Canada until she got fed up, went to America, and paid $30,000 to get the problem fixed right away and is now fine.
Pete, google Oklahoma Surgical Center if you need to get her surgery in the future.  Looks like you could have saved $20,000 from the average costs of the surgery.  You can fly her first class to OKC and still save a fortune.  Also, private surgical centers give you the best service by far.
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