Does any willful disobedience to the pope make a person a sedevacantist?
#11
(11-10-2012, 08:09 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-09-2012, 01:51 PM)dark lancer Wrote: I was thinking that if someone disobeys the pope and does his own thing, it sends the message that the person does not accept the reigning pope as the true pope and Bishop of Rome; which then follows that the person does not believe that a valid pope is in authority.
That is interesting.

That sort of thing has potential for such a perception, but I do not think it makes one a sedevacantist.

What would you say, then, about a person who protests a perceived unjust break with Sacred Tradition by objectively breaking from Sacred Tradition in an unjust way?
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#12
(11-10-2012, 08:31 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(11-10-2012, 08:09 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-09-2012, 01:51 PM)dark lancer Wrote: I was thinking that if someone disobeys the pope and does his own thing, it sends the message that the person does not accept the reigning pope as the true pope and Bishop of Rome; which then follows that the person does not believe that a valid pope is in authority.
That is interesting.

That sort of thing has potential for such a perception, but I do not think it makes one a sedevacantist.

What would you say, then, about a person who protests a perceived unjust break with Sacred Tradition by objectively breaking from Sacred Tradition in an unjust way?

It is difficult discern the states of others usually, so I would hesitate to answer this as I do not know exactly to what it may be referring.

Many things written on this forum do have the logical conclusion of Sedevacantism as they are written and that is something we should try to avoid, even if one has found it necessary (in fact or in perception) to do something canonically irregular.
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#13
(11-10-2012, 08:34 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-10-2012, 08:31 PM)dark lancer Wrote:
(11-10-2012, 08:09 PM)Rosarium Wrote:
(11-09-2012, 01:51 PM)dark lancer Wrote: I was thinking that if someone disobeys the pope and does his own thing, it sends the message that the person does not accept the reigning pope as the true pope and Bishop of Rome; which then follows that the person does not believe that a valid pope is in authority.
That is interesting.

That sort of thing has potential for such a perception, but I do not think it makes one a sedevacantist.

What would you say, then, about a person who protests a perceived unjust break with Sacred Tradition by objectively breaking from Sacred Tradition in an unjust way?

It is difficult discern the states of others usually, so I would hesitate to answer this as I do not know exactly to what it may be referring.

Many things written on this forum do have the logical conclusion of Sedevacantism as they are written and that is something we should try to avoid, even if one has found it necessary (in fact or in perception) to do something canonically irregular.

If I perceive the Novus Ordo Mass to be an unjust break from Tradition, it is my opinion.  However, wouldn't it be objective disobedience to my bishop and the pope if I disobeyed them in their respective authorities as bishop and pope over any issue?
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#14
(11-09-2012, 01:51 PM)dark lancer Wrote: I was thinking that if someone disobeys the pope and does his own thing, it sends the message that the person does not accept the reigning pope as the true pope and Bishop of Rome; which then follows that the person does not believe that a valid pope is in authority.

So then if I disobey my pope-approved bishop by attending Mass at an unapproved Catholic parish within his diocese, I make myself a sedevacantist automatically.

This fails to observe the distinction between believing a pope or bishop does a certain thing validly with believing a certain man was validly consecrated pope or bishop.  One sees the failure to observe this distinction frequently in certain  Catholic circles.  It probably stems from a tendency to view a pope's power as kind of a magical aura rather than a logical framework by which the Church is governed.
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#15
I don't perceive the pope's authority as a magical aura, I just figure that if it is someone's opinion that a pope is validly consecrated or not, it is different from objectively disobeying the pope.
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#16
dark lancer, I think the argument is a little simplistic. Sedevacantism is pretty easy to define. There are people who flirt with the mentality, or for all intents and purposes believe in a cardboard Pope, but the situation often is more complex. I realize with my own priests that Church relations often are quite complicated and political. It is not at all "inspiring" in many circumstances, and rarely do the people meet in person.

In my mind it has to do with your principles. Some people reject the Pope and/or the bishop on principle. These come close to the sedevacantist position. Others have problems which cause them to resist for some reason or another, but want the situation resolved. In this case, it is really a disagreement like you said with a parent. You're on the outs, but you haven't given up.

Ultimately, if you reject the Pope totally, or he really has no consequences in your life (and I mean for the bishops and priests), then I really wonder what the point of a Pope is, and a college of bishops. Hierarchy just becomes something that looks good at big gatherings. There has to be somewhere in which these humans with purported authority actually affect your lives with that authority.
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#17
Is the parish a sedevacantist parish?
???
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#18
These are three issues;
!) If you disobey the Pope you are disobedient, and depending on the severity of the disobedience it could be anything from nothing to a mortal sin.
2) If you disobey the bishop and go to an unapproved "chapel" for mass that could mean excommunication or at best that you would not have fulfilled your Sunday obligation.
3)The sedevacantist position is that you can't disobey the pope because there is no pope in rome and that Pope Benedict is either an imposter or very deluded.

     
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#19
(11-12-2012, 12:21 AM)dark lancer Wrote: I don't perceive the pope's authority as a magical aura, I just figure that if it is someone's opinion that a pope is validly consecrated or not, it is different from objectively disobeying the pope.

Forgive me, but I am not sure I understand: someone will either have the opionion that the pope is validly consecrated, or someone will believe the opposite.  I understood you to say that if someone believes the pope validly consecrated, yet disobeys him, then there is not objective difference between that person and a sedevacanist.

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#20
No, willful disobedience to the pope does not make a person a sedevacantist.  They are, in theory, completely different things, although, in practice, might have some similarities.

There are many dissident Catholics who disobey the pope but they do not question that he is the pope.  They are not sedevacantists.
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