On Vocations, Priestly and Religious
#21
Quote:Philosoraptor, just PM me if you every have a question about the EF, like how it is arrange, the rubrics, and what-not. It is easy once you get your stride. But please feel free.

Thanks a lot! We have a Low Mass every other Saturday. I have heard the seminary sometimes offers a Missa Solemnis on rare occasions (and we have a Schola), but I have not been to one yet - my experience with the EF is limited to the Low Mass. Thankfully, we have an extremely helpful missalet that is a Latin-English facing page edition, allowing someone who knows basic Latin (I should be able to read Aquinas pretty soon - I'm stomping my Latin course) to follow along easily. Mostly, I suspect it will take practice.

One thing kind of bothers me though. It seems that with every priest who celebrates the Extraordinary Form, they all race through the Latin as though they can't wait to be done. Is this others' experience also?
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#22
(11-10-2012, 10:12 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: One thing kind of bothers me though. It seems that with every priest who celebrates the Extraordinary Form, they all race through the Latin as though they can't wait to be done. Is this others' experience also?

I haven't noticed a trend like this.  In my experience, it varies from priest to priest. 
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#23
That's good to know. I tell you the truth, though: Should I offer Mass, every time I do, I shall offer it as if it were the last time.
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#24
(11-10-2012, 09:37 PM)Adeodatus01 Wrote:
(11-10-2012, 07:21 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: On the contrary! the change is happening right now, from the bottom up. At the Josephinum (my seminary), we joke that there's only three kinds of seminarians: rad-trad, trad, and conservative. 

This accords with my experience as a layman encountering new priests. It's not changing that quickly everywhere, but things are changing and for the better. This is due to the adroit leadership of our Pope.

I'm glad to hear that you will be learning the TLM. It is truly and deeply reverent and fitting.

Do be aware that around here you're going to need some thick armor. There are those who seem to think that if you deny that 9/11 was a plot hatched by evil Jew-Masons to destroy Pope Williamson I, the world's last Roman Catholic bishop, you're some kind of idiot as well as being an outright heretic. This phenomenon is due to a hitherto-undiscovered warping of the space-time continuum by the intense electronic activity of the Internet interfering with the Schumann Resonance of the Earth's magnetosphere, disrupting the brain wave patterns of certain unfortunates. Try not to get too angry at them... it's bad for your blood pressure and it doesn't actually accomplish anything.

This!
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#25
(11-10-2012, 08:25 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote:
Quote:While I'm excited to read that your seminary is open to Tradition, and yourself and fellow seminarians are like-minded, what happens to the seminarian or candidate who says, "I only wish to offer the TLM"? Or what if the priest celebrates the NO in Latin and AO-- or just speaks unequivocally? And really, I think we all know the answer.

This is why some trads really infuriate me.

Because they wish the priests and Bishops to follow the letter of Vatican II, in line with Tradition, and not the insidious "Spirit" of the Council? One cannot create a problem (foisting the vernacular and erroneously barring the TLM) and then claim they have the solution in disallowing the very thing which created the issue(s) to be eradicated. Vernacular, CITH, etc. were all supposed to be prudential, local things IF needed. The truth is, most places did not need this in the least. The Church says take an inch if needed, and suddenly we see a marathon of banal crap foisted on the laity.

Sure, if the Church were composed entirely of priests and Latin scholars, that'd be fine.

I'm neither a priest nor a Latin scholar, nor did I grow up with the TLM.


But the liturgy has changed (I should be glad to discuss the Catholicity of that change elsewhere, to be sure), and the people are in a much different place, pastorally speaking, than they were 50 years ago. It's been two generations since Vatican II, and the parishioners of my generation simply could not handle the straight up EF, despite its intrinsic beauties. Saying we need to out and out abolish the Novus Ordo seem incredibly imprudent. I remember going to my first Extraordinary Form - a Low Mass. It was almost completely unintelligible to me. Perhaps the firm traditionalists who have never regularly attended anything else see it differently, but without a suitable introduction (which trads almost never provide), the Mass shuts people out. There's almost an attitude of "keep the Mass secret and unintelligible to the parishioners", and certainly I have never heard a priest preach on the sections of the Mass, to help the people understand what is being done.


I personally never said that the NO should be abolished; the NO should be done correctly-- the rubrics imply AO and typically in Latin. The Holy Father, too, has said the laity should know all the principal parts and prayers in Latin. Don't try this crap with me, Seminarian. Do you think I was following along like a liturgist/preeminent Latin scholar at my first TLM (which was also a Low Mass), or even still do? NOT. AT. ALL. But I refuse to be subject to the division of the vernacular and all the saccharine banality, pedestrian really, "stuff" that comes with it. The jokes, the blah, the je ne sais *puke* quoi.

The problem is this: Catholics in the United States are almost entirely ignorant of their own tradition. How can we ease them into seeing the wonders of it? My answer: start with the Novus Ordo. Abolish the liturgical abuse; start doing sections in Latin, e.g. the Sanctus and Agnus Dei; start introducing chant into the liturgy; preach true participation of the Mass - which is praying the Mass along with the priest - and preach the virtues of reverence and veneration; increase the Latin sections until the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei are all accounted for; finally, one may begin to be able to re-introduce the Extraordinary Form. Without this preparation, the beauty of the TM would go either unnoticed or repudiated as meaningless.


Yeah, that's my entire point..., it ain't happening. It's gonna take those Marxist-homosexualist Bishops and priests to DIE OFF, and the younger "hip" priests to realize this ain't a popularity contest, to get this show back on the road away from hell. Myself and many others refuse to play quasi-unity while the larger body drops off the cliff into the cauldron of that insipid junk so often passed off as the Mass. Do you realize how many of us "trads" ruin career opportunities and keep ourselves or our families in areas we might not be in if it wasn't for a KNOWN Mass without the insanity? How much gasoline and time is taken by traveling to far away places for a Mass we know won't be a freak show, even if it's cloaked in diocesan approval? Don't blame us because the liberals and cowards in the Episcopate spiked the punch. We're staying sober.

Thus a priest or seminarian who informed his Ordinary that he would offer only the EF or the NO in Latin should be censured, and harshly - for that shows no concern for the people. His intentions might be noble - the reform of tradition - but such reform must come about from where people are at.


You've just marginalized the FSSP, ICRSS, SSPX, Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, the priory of Benedictines at the Silverstream Priory... just to name the ones off the top of my head. No priest can be forced into saying the NO or the EF. If it's the "same rite" in the "different form" it shouldn't matter, should it? No. As Mith said, it wasn't an issue for the peasants. Why is it an issue with this hip generation? Because they can't be bothered to learn some Latin, but can give a stunning analysis of the latest pop culture? Houston... we have a problem with such a scenario. I see everyone from people who don't speak a lick of Latin and park themselves at the TLM, some with language barriers to even understanding the sermon, to those who literally are Latin instructors (and they have Missals). Someone will spend 100 dollars on a pair of the latest, soon to be laughable, shoes... but can't pop for a 50 dollar Missal that will last them for years? Houston... we have a problem with such a scenario.

The right spirit in the Church, it seems to me, is "Come as you are." However, She does not say "Leave as you are." If I could work my will, the Ordinary Form of the Mass would be an accurate, beautiful translation of the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular.

I don't even know what to make of this statement. That would require abolishing the NO, at least as the "OF" (which basically means it goes into the trash), for the NO ISN'T just a vernacular translation of the TLM. Is it the NO you want, or the TLM? Dr. John Senior calls such double-think "Modernist" in "Death of the Christian Culture". If such a dispensation were, for a time, granted to ease the transition back to the timeless TLM, OK. But that's wishful thinking.

Here's what Dom Mark Daniel Kirby, O.S.B, the Prior of Silverstream Priory has to say on the OF/NO vs TLM... definitely not the same:

http://vultus.stblogs.org/2012/10/the-or...ummor.html

Here's what Fr. Chad Ripperger, FSSP, has to say about the two forms:
http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_f...f-611.html

Here's what Fr. Calvin Goodwin, FSSP, former Jesuit, has to say:


In short, this fanciful notion of the NO being "better" or even "equal" is hogwash. Valid? Yes. I dare not say otherwise. The same? Not on my life or any others.

I think a good case could be made for Mass celebrated, at least in part, in the vernacular (if someone wishes to argue homilies and sermons should be delivered in Latin, I should love to hear it). However, that is not up to me, it is up to the Magisterium.

Don't be absurd. Homilies/Sermons were always said in the vernacular, even if that vernacular was Latin in that time and place. No one but a small unhinged few would argue for Latin sermons. The Liturgy is not the Sermon. Frankly, there is no need for the vernacular.

Traditionalists often seems as if they wish to make no concessions for human weakness, especially with the liturgy and liturgical reform. But an "all or nothing" approach seems foolish.


Funny, but Fr. John Berg, FSSP, said he needs the TLM because he is weak. I echo his statement.

Here are his words:
Quote:Discerning a Vocation

During the course of his junior year, John began to hear God’s call and to desire “a future in which he would give all to God.” At the same time, through his studies of St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae, his understanding of the sacraments and the role of priests as “dispensers of the mysteries of God” (1 Cor. 4:1) increased. So, also, did his love for the Mass, especially what was then called the Old Rite of the Mass.

“At first,” he recalls, “I would tell a friend of mine that I would be a diocesan priest, where the battle really was. He would argue that most did not offer very good formation, but I would say that I would survive.… In the end, however, I realized I was too weak; I needed the Old Mass, now called the extraordinary form. I needed all of the support this form offers. It is rich in prayers and gestures and rules, and is made for those who need the extra help to be well prepared for the graces of the Sacrament.”
Source: http://www.thomasaquinas.edu/alumni/very...E2%80%9993

Want my advice? Follow the example of the FSSP and desist, while a seminarian, and probably as a priest God willing, from message boards. Just leave. Be a seminarian. What you say now will not be what, or how, you would say in 4 years. The seminary will be like college-- you will grow, and be embarrassed of your freshman papers.

In your intro post you said the following:
Quote:I am eager to absorb ever more tradition that Holy Mother Church has to offer me, and even more eager to present that tradition, in love, to those ignorant of it, that they perhaps might receive it with joy.

You will not be edified by this forum nor any other. You will be edified by interacting with your brothers in the Seminary and through prayer, study, and non-religious recreation to take a break (lest you become overwhelmed and break).

Signed,

Also a convert from the Protestant Evangelical Insanity
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#26
Quote:Yeah, that's my entire point..., it ain't happening. It's gonna take those Marxist-homosexualist Bishops and priests to DIE OFF, and the younger "hip" priests to realize this ain't a popularity contest, to get this show back on the road away from hell.

And that, my friend, is precisely the difference between you and I, for I hold that it is happening, and happening right now. Look at the new vocations, both to religious life and the priesthood; look at the new priests; look at the way the Holy Father has steered the Church in recent years - all towards a resurgence of tradition. And when we look at the crowd of modernists who call themselves 'Catholic', we see a sea of silver hair. Orthodoxy is with the young.

Quote:You've just marginalized the FSSP, ICRSS, SSPX, Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, the priory of Benedictines at the Silverstream Priory... just to name the ones off the top of my head.

I was thinking primarily of parish priests not part of said priestly societies. And the Society of Pius X is forever closed to me for they are not in full communion with the Holy Father, and I have identical reservations about any other fraternal organization who chooses a schismatic attitude of disobedience and dissent rather than a commitment to difficult reform. And even if what you said applied to individual priests not part of said societies, I hold the people still need to be introduced slowly to the beautiful traditional liturgies. Is that so horrible?

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#27
(11-10-2012, 10:12 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote:
Quote:Philosoraptor, just PM me if you every have a question about the EF, like how it is arrange, the rubrics, and what-not. It is easy once you get your stride. But please feel free.

Thanks a lot! We have a Low Mass every other Saturday. I have heard the seminary sometimes offers a Missa Solemnis on rare occasions (and we have a Schola), but I have not been to one yet - my experience with the EF is limited to the Low Mass. Thankfully, we have an extremely helpful missalet that is a Latin-English facing page edition, allowing someone who knows basic Latin (I should be able to read Aquinas pretty soon - I'm stomping my Latin course) to follow along easily. Mostly, I suspect it will take practice.

One thing kind of bothers me though. It seems that with every priest who celebrates the Extraordinary Form, they all race through the Latin as though they can't wait to be done. Is this others' experience also?

I have had a few priests do it, but not the majority of my experience. Most priests I know go at regular speaking pace during a Low Mass.

As for the Missal, graduate to a full Missal when you can, so you can get the fullness of the prayers, such as the Proper. Also to allow you to fully appreciate the relationship between the two forms. On any given day they'll probably be different. Just reading the Ordinary is fine, but the Proper has such depth to it. Also, if you stick to it, you can memorize the Ordinary and understand it without a translation. This adds to the participation greatly. I know most people can't do this, but since you are inclined, I am sure it is within your ability. Well, God bless and keep you!
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#28
(11-10-2012, 11:23 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: And that, my friend, is precisely the difference between you and I, for I hold that it is happening, and happening right now. Look at the new vocations, both to religious life and the priesthood; look at the new priests; look at the way the Holy Father has steered the Church in recent years - all towards a resurgence of tradition. And when we look at the crowd of modernists who call themselves 'Catholic', we see a sea of silver hair. Orthodoxy is with the young.

Ding!

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#29
(11-10-2012, 11:23 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: I was thinking primarily of parish priests not part of said priestly societies. And the Society of Pius X is forever closed to me for they are not in full communion with the Holy Father, and I have identical reservations about any other fraternal organization who chooses a schismatic attitude of disobedience and dissent rather than a commitment to difficult reform. And even if what you said applied to individual priests not part of said societies, I hold the people still need to be introduced slowly to the beautiful traditional liturgies. Is that so horrible?

Ho ho ho!  It's a shame for your soul that you'd rather be in communion with this:
[Image: 207_MagicMass02.jpg]

[Image: D004_ClownMassA.jpg]

[Image: pj2600x400.jpg]

Than this:

[Image: solemn-high-mass.jpg]

I want nothing to do with your new religion and slavish devotion to the pope that gives the thumbs up to clown masses and ostracizes the TLM and the faithful and clergy who stand by it.

Have you read Quo Primum, Raptor?

There's a nice part in it how those who fool with the missal will incur the wrath of God and Sts Peter and Paul
More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com/

Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#30
Way too many trolls lately.....
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