First Vatican Council: Why wasn't it finished by BJXXIII?
#11
(11-11-2012, 03:18 PM)Tim Wrote:
(11-11-2012, 11:18 AM)Heinrich Wrote:
(11-11-2012, 07:28 AM)Tim Wrote: I remember it said BJXXIII called the Council so he could end the first. The thinking was only a Council can close a Council.

tim

Tim, I enjoy your narratives of auld lang syne. Do you remember things from your parents, aunts, uncles, etc. when word of the impeding council came to be, or even when the conclave took forever to elect the new pope after Pious XII? Did people in your environs know something sinister was afoot?

I believe the same was going on in the other ethnic groups, and this was the fall off, not that they went off to become Prots. They stayed home, me included.

This is what I've always suspected: People didn't leave the faith, the faith left the people.
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#12
Flying Dutchman.

Before I tell you any more, I want to say this. It was my own fault for leaving, it was my sin of rebellion. I blame no one but me, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Okay, the Mass of Paul VI in 64-65, wasn't that different from the TLM, but I remember no one preparing us properly. One day the TLM, next day the Mass of Pope Paul VI. Change is not easily assimilated. The changes in sitting, standing, and kneeling, made us feel foolish. This is not the feeling one should foster, this is fertile ground for Doubt.

The next thing is the changes didn't stop, and the confusion and doubt increases. Simultaneously there was the beginnng of revolution in society. In 1964-1965, the very first handy dandy contraceptive pill came on the market, Enovid-E. I know because I was working in a drug store, and this changed the world.
Mayor Daley was double crossed by the downstate legislators and they made it legal in Chicago, and tied his hands. The city started to wobble on it axis.

It was a trickle at first of those leaving, but it kept going and became a little river. More changes and more folks met their limit, and bolted. It wasn't just the Church, the city was rapidly spinning out of control. Professionals whipped the civil rights movement to a frenzy, and it spilled into the streets, resulting in riots and burning down entire sections of Chicago. Fear was everywhere, and going to work in a black or puerto rican neighborhood, you were putting your life in danger.

Next the Sisters left. This was simultaneously with the beginning of the feminist movement. All I'd hear from the screaming feminists in the neighborhood was the sisters got screwed because they didn't have pensions like the Priests ? And you crumby men and your men priests are the cause of all problems. Exit more priests, and pew sitters. Poof the marriage of Father Nice and his right hand man, sister Frank Maria d' Bruseir. More leaving.

Next came the brand new updated for the future Mass of Bugnini, and Father Nice and Sister F.M. d' Brusier were ready. This was the end, and I was gone with this, competely. I had had my foot out the door since 65 but this was it for me. No more making a fool of me. I became a fallen away Catholic of diaspora.

tim
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#13
We would have very likely had the same results
??? ??? ???
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#14
(11-11-2012, 09:55 PM)Tim Wrote: Flying Dutchman.

Before I tell you any more, I want to say this. It was my own fault for leaving, it was my sin of rebellion. I blame no one but me, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Okay, the Mass of Paul VI in 64-65, wasn't that different from the TLM, but I remember no one preparing us properly. One day the TLM, next day the Mass of Pope Paul VI. Change is not easily assimilated. The changes in sitting, standing, and kneeling, made us feel foolish. This is not the feeling one should foster, this is fertile ground for Doubt.

The next thing is the changes didn't stop, and the confusion and doubt increases. Simultaneously there was the beginnng of revolution in society. In 1964-1965, the very first handy dandy contraceptive pill came on the market, Enovid-E. I know because I was working in a drug store, and this changed the world.
Mayor Daley was double crossed by the downstate legislators and they made it legal in Chicago, and tied his hands. The city started to wobble on it axis.

It was a trickle at first of those leaving, but it kept going and became a little river. More changes and more folks met their limit, and bolted. It wasn't just the Church, the city was rapidly spinning out of control. Professionals whipped the civil rights movement to a frenzy, and it spilled into the streets, resulting in riots and burning down entire sections of Chicago. Fear was everywhere, and going to work in a black or puerto rican neighborhood, you were putting your life in danger.

Next the Sisters left. This was simultaneously with the beginning of the feminist movement. All I'd hear from the screaming feminists in the neighborhood was the sisters got screwed because they didn't have pensions like the Priests ? And you crumby men and your men priests are the cause of all problems. Exit more priests, and pew sitters. Poof the marriage of Father Nice and his right hand man, sister Frank Maria d' Bruseir. More leaving.

Next came the brand new updated for the future Mass of Bugnini, and Father Nice and Sister F.M. d' Brusier were ready. This was the end, and I was gone with this, competely. I had had my foot out the door since 65 but this was it for me. No more making a fool of me. I became a fallen away Catholic of diaspora.

tim

Tim - When is your memoir coming out, because I'll be first in line to buy it.  Since I was born after the V2 and didn't even become Catholic until my early 20s, I have little knowledge of life before/during/after the Council.  Your stories of growing up during that time are always insightful and I love reading them.  So if you haven't started writing your autobiography yet, you need to start now!
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#15
Tim, Your stories are interesting. Something I read in a book about VII was 1) the Italians and Spanish were the conservative block, and they were up for no change. They just wanted the status quo rubber stamped. Maybe that lends credence to your statement that the Italians held everything in line. After the first days of the Council, when the schemata were sent back and/or scrapped, it was known that the Curia, which really held all the power, was not going to have an easy way with their agenda. And then another thing about the pill. Maybe not in Chicago, but some bishops commented that contraception was already being used, and perhaps prevalently so. There was the question open of whether artificial birth prevention was licit. Maybe in Chicago it was rare, but it seems from the comments that many bishops were quite concerned about contraception. Paul VI took the topic off the table. It was deemed on one hand to be somewhat improper to speak of such matters in such an open forum (modesty) and also because he eventually tasked a committee to investigate the moral question, which was to become Humanae Vitae.

A lot of this is academic now, but what do you think of this question:

VII and the New Mass came into a sweeping cultural revolution. Do you think they were causes or necessary conditions of revolution? Now I am talking about initially, out of the gates. Like the initial reactions. Were people already primed to reject the Church as irrelevant, and this supplied the motive, or was it really viewed as a sell-out and a Church gone crazy?

I know your view is just one, but it is still interesting to me. We're all glad your in the Church now!
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#16
(11-11-2012, 09:55 PM)Tim Wrote: Flying Dutchman.

Before I tell you any more, I want to say this. It was my own fault for leaving, it was my sin of rebellion. I blame no one but me, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Okay, the Mass of Paul VI in 64-65, wasn't that different from the TLM, but I remember no one preparing us properly. One day the TLM, next day the Mass of Pope Paul VI. Change is not easily assimilated. The changes in sitting, standing, and kneeling, made us feel foolish. This is not the feeling one should foster, this is fertile ground for Doubt.

The next thing is the changes didn't stop, and the confusion and doubt increases. Simultaneously there was the beginnng of revolution in society. In 1964-1965, the very first handy dandy contraceptive pill came on the market, Enovid-E. I know because I was working in a drug store, and this changed the world.
Mayor Daley was double crossed by the downstate legislators and they made it legal in Chicago, and tied his hands. The city started to wobble on it axis.

It was a trickle at first of those leaving, but it kept going and became a little river. More changes and more folks met their limit, and bolted. It wasn't just the Church, the city was rapidly spinning out of control. Professionals whipped the civil rights movement to a frenzy, and it spilled into the streets, resulting in riots and burning down entire sections of Chicago. Fear was everywhere, and going to work in a black or puerto rican neighborhood, you were putting your life in danger.

Next the Sisters left. This was simultaneously with the beginning of the feminist movement. All I'd hear from the screaming feminists in the neighborhood was the sisters got screwed because they didn't have pensions like the Priests ? And you crumby men and your men priests are the cause of all problems. Exit more priests, and pew sitters. Poof the marriage of Father Nice and his right hand man, sister Frank Maria d' Bruseir. More leaving.

Next came the brand new updated for the future Mass of Bugnini, and Father Nice and Sister F.M. d' Brusier were ready. This was the end, and I was gone with this, competely. I had had my foot out the door since 65 but this was it for me. No more making a fool of me. I became a fallen away Catholic of diaspora.

tim

Whenever I read things like this, my heart breaks and my soul cries out, why God, why has the Church abandoned us?
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#17
(11-12-2012, 10:50 AM)Might_4_Right Wrote: Whenever I read things like this, my heart breaks and my soul cries out, why God, why has the Church abandoned us?

Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani!
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#18
(11-12-2012, 11:14 AM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(11-12-2012, 10:50 AM)Might_4_Right Wrote: Whenever I read things like this, my heart breaks and my soul cries out, why God, why has the Church abandoned us?

Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani!

EXACTLY !
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#19
First I want to be clear I'm an observer of the times, and I have no special skills, in fact i'm better remembering this stuff than finding documents to back me up with cites.

What I saw then and did not fathom was it was a confluence of many different rebellions. Was the actual Vatican II the singular cause ? No ! Was it the lead event which started it ? Maybe !  The more I look at this through the lens of then, I see Lucifer as a Field Marshall orchestrating a gajillion things to kill the Church. There is no way even 200 modernists could have devised and hatched the hijacking of the Council, it was orchestrated by a preternatural intelligence way way smarter than us. I firmly believe Pope Leo XIII was allowed to hear what was coming.

The pill.
Mayor Daley had a deal with the downstate legislators he'd support all of their spending if they'd keephe the pill illegal in Chicago. There is a Chicago History site, and I saw there that before the pill being legalized here, the Chicagoans of African descent had less out of wedlock births than Chicagoans of European descent. That changed rapidly and the families died. They were aimed at in my estimation.

In one of the audios posted here there was a bit on Cardinal Cody. He worked with a guy named Beeson in Louisiana to help him by giving cover to him for a contraceptive clinic.It was rumored here that Cardinal Cody along with othe Bishops was instrumental in bringing contraceptive clinics to Puerto Rico and ruining the families there. I can not find actual facts on this so I'm not accusing him.

Was the Council an excuse or a betrayal ?
Both ! it was the vanguard of the revolutionary movement and an embodiement of those diverse forces in an odd way. This to me is the best proof of this being concerted by the Devil. The whole notion of 'racism' is now enshrined in the Church. I have heard all say the Catholics back then were racists and lacked charity etc. Bull ! We were attacked by the Blue Bloods Ivy League children with their social engineering.

Obama is the embodiement of this. He is a social justice catholic small c, trained by the Saul Alinsky church of Chicago. They paid for some parts of his Alinsky education. But Alinsky is from before the Council n the late forties in the neighborhhod near the Stockyards which are way gone. Msgr. Egan of those days at Mundelien Seminary was nicknamed Saul Alinsky's disciple.

I've just finishe a book named Betrayed written by a laicized priest Kevane. In it the book he explains how Bishop Bernardin and a Msgr. Illich, a commie plant, were undermining the initiative of Pope Paul VI for helping the Church in Latin America. The author was appointed to rum the Pope's initiative and he explains how he was thwarted in the book.

That''s why I say it's diabolical and can not be straightened out by humans sorting it out. It is way over our abilities, and the world, and us too more than we'd like to admit, are effected by this diabolical disorientation. I'm not saying we are co-operating in this mess but we are not free of the twisted sense of our times.

Cling to the Faith and pray,pray,pray !

tim
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