Muhammad Prophet?
#31
This is an explanation of what heresy is, as concerns your charge.

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/...cs_003.htm

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#32
(01-12-2013, 03:07 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote:
(01-11-2013, 04:11 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Yes; yes you are.  That is why they are not re-baptized when they convert, because they are Baptized in Christ.

And... then they are cast out of the Church through sin, which DEFINITELY includes their heresies.  They have the sacrament "held hostage".

Well, duh.  But mortal sinners do not as such worship a different God; you are confusing object and verb.  Protestants worship the Holy Trinity, the correct object.  Their worship is what is lacking, their actions rather than their object.  If you deny this, you deny the teachings of the Catholic Church, period.
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#33
(01-12-2013, 03:29 AM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-12-2013, 03:07 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote:
(01-11-2013, 04:11 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Yes; yes you are.  That is why they are not re-baptized when they convert, because they are Baptized in Christ.

And... then they are cast out of the Church through sin, which DEFINITELY includes their heresies.  They have the sacrament "held hostage".

Well, duh.  But mortal sinners do not as such worship a different God; you are confusing object and verb.  Protestants worship the Holy Trinity, the correct object.  Their worship is what is lacking, their actions rather than their object.  If you deny this, you deny the teachings of the Catholic Church, period.

And those who flat out reject the Catholic Church as the one true faithHuh?  What about them?  Baptism brings one into the Church, but their belief in rejecting the Catholic Church means nothing here?

Can one be in the Church while simultaneously rejecting it and believing it to be false? <<< That's what I can't wrap my head around.
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#34
(01-12-2013, 09:02 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote:
(01-12-2013, 03:29 AM)Parmandur Wrote:
(01-12-2013, 03:07 AM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote:
(01-11-2013, 04:11 PM)Parmandur Wrote: Yes; yes you are.  That is why they are not re-baptized when they convert, because they are Baptized in Christ.

And... then they are cast out of the Church through sin, which DEFINITELY includes their heresies.  They have the sacrament "held hostage".

Well, duh.  But mortal sinners do not as such worship a different God; you are confusing object and verb.  Protestants worship the Holy Trinity, the correct object.  Their worship is what is lacking, their actions rather than their object.  If you deny this, you deny the teachings of the Catholic Church, period.

And those who flat out reject the Catholic Church as the one true faithHuh?  What about them?  Baptism brings one into the Church, but their belief in rejecting the Catholic Church means nothing here?

Can one be in the Church while simultaneously rejecting it and believing it to be false? <<< That's what I can't wrap my head around.

If the issue you're not wrapping your head around weren't the case, then how could invincible ignorance work out?

Keep in mind that Salvation ultimately is a mystery. How ANYONE can be saved is subject wholly to God and His mercy.

Check out the link I provided earlier, and read through Fr. Hardon's explanation.

What we MUST keep in mind is that only Catholics will be in Heaven. But that doesn't mean those people were folks one might run into at Mass. Perhaps they were bowing toward Mecca or saying the Shema or even shouting Hallelujah like a weirdo on meth.

Do you trust the orthodoxy of Abp. Lefebvre to teach the Faith properly? I would hope so, at least as concerns such a basic issue.

Check out: http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbi...ter-10.htm

The man, God rest his soul and may he one day be declared a Saint, spelled it out clearly.
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#35
To clarify, I'm not a Feeneyite.  I do recognize that through Baptism of Desire, some atheist, buddhist, or someone from a tribal society with shamans or whatever they are, who never hear the word of Christ, through not fault of their own, may end up in Heaven.  Yes.

That doesn't mean they believed in God.  In all likelihood, they didn't.  But, it's possible they'll be saved, yes.

I'm not sure if you and I are talking on the same point. 

I agree with Archbishop Lefebvre.  Again, I'm not sure you and I are on the same point, as the article isn't addressing what I'm concerned about.

Ok, let's try this a different way.  What is it that you think I believe?
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#36
(01-12-2013, 09:30 PM)LoneWolfRadTrad Wrote: To clarify, I'm not a Feeneyite.  I do recognize that through Baptism of Desire, some atheist, buddhist, or someone from a tribal society with shamans or whatever they are, who never hear the word of Christ, through not fault of their own, may end up in Heaven.  Yes.

That doesn't mean they believed in God.  In all likelihood, they didn't.  But, it's possible they'll be saved, yes.

I'm not sure if you and I are talking on the same point. 

I agree with Archbishop Lefebvre.  Again, I'm not sure you and I are on the same point, as the article isn't addressing what I'm concerned about.

Ok, let's try this a different way.  What is it that you think I believe?

How can  I tell you what you believe based on the fact that you admittedly can't even communicate what you believe?

All men, who obey natural law, in their own way, believe in God. See John Chapter 1 and Romans Chapter 2; see the fact that there is not, nor will there ever be, an atheistic bush tribe. Atheism is ultimately a product of revelation being rejected I believe.

If you agree with Abp. Lefebvre, then you admit you believe the following:

Quote:Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian's formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion.  They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.  As priests we must state the truth.

I don't know of a single Protestant who has never heard of the Catholic Church, nor who has not heard some Catholic doctrine. So this goes beyond the mere bushmen or BFE Trashcanistan muslims, or some rice farmer who has no education in rural China that subscribes to Buddhism. The only other option is the SSPX's very founder is preaching heresy in concert with other traditional Catholic sources like the Baltimore Catechism, Pope St. Pius X, and indeed, the entirety of 2k years of Church Fathers, Doctors, etc. Which means the Holy Spirit is preaching heresy, which means we might as well quit wasting our time and go get laid.
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#37
However, that being said, we CANNOT stop going out into the world with a missionary spirit. To stop trying to preach the truth of the Church because, "well, if a Protestant can go to heaven, why should they have to become Catholic?" is the sin of indifferentism. This is the dangerous bridge which the Second Vatican Council DID NOT CROSS but its insidious so-called "spirit" did.

This bridge spans the great chasm, if you will, between heaven and hell. The spirit of VII came from hell and then pulled a bunch of people back with it across the bridge.

So, please, don't let this proper understanding discourage your efforts to convert people or spread the Gospel as properly understood, nor that the Church is the True Church.

It's already hard enough to get to heaven knowing the doctrine, that the Church is the True Church, etc. It's gotta be much harder without, and just be-bopping all over the place.
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#38
Again you don't seem to be addressing what I'm objecting to.  The bolded text contains nothing I object to.  I'm not expressing what I'm trying to say clearlyHuh?

You said: "All men, who obey natural law, in their own way, believe in God. See John Chapter 1 and Romans Chapter 2; see the fact that there is not, nor will there ever be, an atheistic bush tribe. Atheism is ultimately a product of revelation being rejected I believe. "

I'm not talking about those "who obey natural law", I'm talking about non-Catholics in general, whether or not the above clause applies to them.  Can you say they believe in GodHuh?  Especially if the clause doesn't apply.
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#39
All must obey natural law to some degree, lest they be totally evil.

Quote: ... As to those general principles, the natural law, in the abstract, can nowise be blotted out from men's hearts.
Summa Theologica, 1/2, Q94, Article 6.

I don't understand what you're objecting to since the only objection I've seen raised so far is in regards to Protestants/non-Catholics but yet the answers laid forth so far show they can 1) be a part of the Church in a certain way 2) can attain Salvation (being part of the Church into eternity).

WHAT is your objection specifically? Whether or not they believe in God? Of course they believe in God.

How can the clause not apply? Are we entering into hypotheticals now where we just make things up to support a presupposition?
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#40
Muslims are worshipers of the Devil, Antichrists bent on the destruction of Gods people. Mohammed is a false prophet heathen.
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