A little help, please? Jesus alone?
#21
(12-12-2012, 11:00 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: I'm not the best apologist and I have a family member that enrolled his kids in evangelical school. None of them go to mass but they go to bizarre rock shows with swaying arms and shouty preachers. Can someone here help try to explain why faith in Jesus alone, without the Catholic church, just isn't sufficient? I tried using logic with him, giving dated and timelines of these faith alone churches but he doesn't get it.

Thanks.

John 6:33-35 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. [34] They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. [35] And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

John 6:50-52 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

John 6:54-55 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

The only place on earth to receive the Flesh of Jesus, the Bread of Life is at a Catholic Mass, the Holy Eucharist.

Evangelicals or any other Protestant denomination do not even believe themselves that they are offering the Bread of Life because they believe that they are doing it symbolically.

Even Sola Scriptura should lead them to the Holy Eucharist at a Catholic Mass.
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#22
Some very good replies, thanks guys!

As for my uncle...he was never religious. His wife was brought up in Peru as an Episcopalian and in her adult hood as a Peru immigrant here in the states, she fell away from her own protestant faith. Some bad things happened to the both of them and she quickly turned to the bible and fell in with non-denominational prots. Today, they both live in Peru with their two daughters and they enrolled the girl in a *christian* school. They attend a service where the preacher, who also has a satellite corporation in San Diego, says a few words and then lets everyone rock out. I do not understand why hispanics love this garbage. My wife's family is Mexican and her family is the same way but Catholic. 

I even showed my uncle the family tree of Christianity, where Catholicism at the base, right above Judaism but he doesn't seem to care. He thinks that it can't be bad if they all accept Jesus. He is impressed that the pastor knows the bible inside out. I tried explaining to him that reciting the bible without knowing the true meaning is no more impressive than reciting the McDonald's dollar menu. It doesn't even matter if one can remember exact verses, just as long as you understand what the bible means and you understand it by reading the writings of the saints and having good priests also help you.

I also tried bringing his mother (my grandmother - rip) into it. She was brought up in a Catholic orphanage and experienced terrible things. She had a pretty bad life but never turned her back on the one true faith and part of the reason for this was one caring nun that was like a mother to her. So, if my grandmother didn't abandon everything she believed in, doesn't that make it even more special to remain a Catholic? He has no replied to my email since then.

I never really get into religious debates with friends or strangers but with family I feel like I have to guide them into the right direction. Even if I don't have all the answers, I'd like to at least point them towards the destination.
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#23
(12-13-2012, 05:41 PM)mikemac Wrote:
(12-12-2012, 11:00 PM)MorganHiver Wrote: I'm not the best apologist and I have a family member that enrolled his kids in evangelical school. None of them go to mass but they go to bizarre rock shows with swaying arms and shouty preachers. Can someone here help try to explain why faith in Jesus alone, without the Catholic church, just isn't sufficient? I tried using logic with him, giving dated and timelines of these faith alone churches but he doesn't get it.

Thanks.

John 6:33-35 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. [34] They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread. [35] And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

John 6:50-52 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

John 6:54-55 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

The only place on earth to receive the Flesh of Jesus, the Bread of Life is at a Catholic Mass, the Holy Eucharist.

Evangelicals or any other Protestant denomination do not even believe themselves that they are offering the Bread of Life because they believe that they are doing it symbolically.

Even Sola Scriptura should lead them to the Holy Eucharist at a Catholic Mass.


Actually some Protestants do believe in the Real Presence of Christ. Lutherans and Anglicans do at least. They have a different way of putting it than us, but they DO believe in the Real Presence.
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#24
Yeah but their part of their Bible that reads "After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him" is John 6:66.

Not so in the Catholic Bible.

Now that was nasty. lol

It sounds like it was Mary that led you back to the Catholic Faith Rosa Mystica.  Which I think would be a real good topic for MorganHiver to talk to his relatives about.
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#25
(12-13-2012, 06:15 PM)Rosa Mystica Wrote: Actually some Protestants do believe in the Real Presence of Christ. Lutherans and Anglicans do at least. They have a different way of putting it than us, but they DO believe in the Real Presence.

Luther did not believe in transubstantiation. He believed in consubstantiation. There is no Real Presence in the Eucharist that truly sets it apart from anything else. As the late Fr Hardon, a Jesuit priest who, in his early life, taught theology in multiple Protestant seminaries, explained:

Quote:Martin Luther, even though he might use the word transubstantiation, he coined the word consubstantiation.  In other words, even where he would retain the word transubstantiation, he really meant and spent thousands of words explaining what he meant by consubstantiation.  Transubstantiation as we know, means, that what had been bread and wine in substance, are changed into the Whole Jesus Christ.  So what becomes present on the altar is no longer, no longer the substance of bread and wine, that’s gone.  By replacing the substance of bread and wine is both the substance of Christ’s Living Body and Blood and all the physical properties of Christ’s living humanity.  For Luther has the word consubstantiation. “Con” being the equivalent of quo in Latin, the substance of bread and wine remain but they then remain along with, if you please, Christ’s Body and Blood. Then he invented, what we’ve touched on I think more than once in class, without directly dealing with it as we are doing here.  He invented what he called, there was no theory for him, it was an article of the Lutheran faith. What he called the ubiquity of Christ’s humanity. Ubiquity comes from the Latin, ubique, which means the everywhereness of Christ’s humanity. 

I cannot begin to begin to tell you how deeply these Protestant ideas have infected the thinking of many well-intentioned, but poorly educated Catholics. What do we believe takes place at what we call transubstantiation?  At the moment of transubstantiation what having been the substance of bread and wine cease to be there.  Accidents, or properties, of the bread and the wine stay. What replaces the substance of bread and wine, is the Whole Christ. Remember, the Totus Christus, the whole Christ, which means the whole of His Divinity and the whole of His humanity, but for one person, and consequently, there is no such thing as the ubiquity of Christ’s humanity, that in plain Anglo-Saxon, is a lie.  That’s spelled l-i-e, that’s a lie.  When God became man, He began it truly young.  Where was His humanity?  When He was conceived in Mary’s womb, His humanity was in Mary’s womb.  On Christmas morning, where was His humanity?  Well where else, in Her arms.  Christ’s humanity was, wherever, well, His human nature His living body, with His limbs, His face, His hands, feet, wherever therefore, Christ the whole Christ was present, was present also His humanity.  But don’t you dare say that Christ’s humanity ever was or now is everywhere. Absolutely NO!  What then took place on the first Holy Thursday night?  What happened bread and wine became Christ truly present with His humanity, keep after that, keep after that.  The hundreds of priests that I’ve taught, and there are many confused priests in the Church today, how well I know. The key to grasping our faith of the Real Presence is to know that Christ’s humanity is not everywhere.
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#26
mikemac,

I used to have this burning hatred for Mary before going through Lutheran confirmation classes. I just fell away, and especially from devotion to Mary. Like I said, it was at the Lutheran confirmation classes that got me thinking again, and doing my own research. Because the Pastor did say he believes in the Assumption, and gave his reasons for his belief ("If Jesus could assume Enoch and Elijah, why not His own Mother"......and..."The early church was obsessed about relics, and they found everybody, except for Mary and St. Joseph"), I began to re-think this anti-Mary stance of Protestants, and I slowly started coming back.

Point blank, yes Mary's intercession was the final reason, but the Lutheran pastor was used as the vehicle, so to speak. I do give credit where it is due.

Your sister in the Sacred Hearts of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph,
Jessica
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