Should we pray for the soul of the murderer/suicide from CT?
#41
But we don't know that jim jones was autistic or mentally defective.  So it is reasonable to assume in light of any evidence to the contrary that he was rational and motivated by evil.

What Adam Lanza did was certainly a sin, but since it would appear he was mentally defective enough that he did not talk to people in his own high school for years, lacked the ability to pick up on social cues, we have no understanding of whether he had full will and understanding of what he doing.

Autistic people do do totally irrational stuff without rhyme or reason.

If someone was drugged against their will on mind altering substances or brainwashed under some CIA mind control program one would presumably give them the benefit of the doubt and assume diminished responsibility.  Not saying canonise him, but praying for him does not seem perverse to me.  Praying for Judas or Joe Stalin or Mao or Hitler does seem deliberately perverse.
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#42
(12-18-2012, 05:06 PM)ggreg Wrote: But we don't know that jim jones was autistic or mentally defective.  So it is reasonable to assume in light of any evidence to the contrary that he was rational and motivated by evil.

What Adam Lanza did was certainly a sin, but since it would appear he was mentally defective enough that he did not talk to people in his own high school for years, lacked the ability to pick up on social cues, we have no understanding of whether he had full will and understanding of what he doing.

Autistic people do do totally irrational stuff without rhyme or reason.

If someone was drugged against their will on mind altering substances or brainwashed under some CIA mind control program one would presumably give them the benefit of the doubt and assume diminished responsibility.  Not saying canonise him, but praying for him does not seem perverse to me.  Praying for Judas or Joe Stalin or Mao or Hitler does seem deliberately perverse.

Then please permit me to remove any appearance of this. If I HAVE to pray for them, I'd only pray that the Good Lord hinder their wicked plans and undo their dark schemes.
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#43
I find the best course of action in this sort of case is to simply pray "for all poor sinners." Thankfully, we don't have to mention specific ones by name.
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#44
Technically yes. If you can manage to make yourself do it however, hats off to you.
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#45
(12-18-2012, 05:17 PM)Deidre Wrote: I find the best course of action in this sort of case is to simply pray "for all poor sinners." Thankfully, we don't have to mention specific ones by name.

This is the Best course of action I would say.
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#46
He's dead. That means he is either in: 1) heaven 2) purgatory 3) hell.

If 1, praying for his soul is pointless, as he has the beatific vision and he will be responding to prayers with his own. If 2, it will help him get to heaven quicker and he will pray for those kind souls in the Church Militant who prayed for him. If 3, irrevocably pointless.

I see nothing to indicate he is in the state of 1 or 2, unless he had a moment of perfect contrition before committing suicide... think about that.
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#47
(12-18-2012, 05:58 PM)SMKMI Wrote: He's dead. That means he is either in: 1) heaven 2) purgatory 3) hell.

If 1, praying for his soul is pointless, as he has the beatific vision and he will be responding to prayers with his own. If 2, it will help him get to heaven quicker and he will pray for those kind souls in the Church Militant who prayed for him. If 3, irrevocably pointless.

I see nothing to indicate he is in the state of 1 or 2, unless he had a moment of perfect contrition before committing suicide... think about that.

Praying for any suicide would generally suppose that the person repented in their last instant of life.  It's unlikely, but not impossible.  People who lose a loved one to suicide can hold out such a hope.  But that's not the only reason a suicide might be in purgatory.  Their culpability could be lessened by things like mental illness or prescription drugs.

You might see nothing to indicate the shooter is purgatory, but none of us are God so we just can't know.

Even if a soul is in hell, are our prayers for them "irrevocably pointless"?  Given that we can't know who's in hell outside of Judas, why would the Church exhort us to pray for the dead if we might be wasting our time?
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#48
(12-18-2012, 06:12 PM)Hanno Wrote:
(12-18-2012, 05:58 PM)SMKMI Wrote: He's dead. That means he is either in: 1) heaven 2) purgatory 3) hell.

If 1, praying for his soul is pointless, as he has the beatific vision and he will be responding to prayers with his own. If 2, it will help him get to heaven quicker and he will pray for those kind souls in the Church Militant who prayed for him. If 3, irrevocably pointless.

I see nothing to indicate he is in the state of 1 or 2, unless he had a moment of perfect contrition before committing suicide... think about that.

Praying for any suicide would generally suppose that the person repented in their last instant of life.  It's unlikely, but not impossible.  People who lose a loved one to suicide can hold out such a hope.  But that's not the only reason a suicide might be in purgatory.  Their culpability could be lessened by things like mental illness or prescription drugs.

You might see nothing to indicate the shooter is purgatory, but none of us are God so we just can't know.

Even if a soul is in hell, are our prayers for them "irrevocably pointless"?  Given that we can't know who's in hell outside of Judas, why would the Church exhort us to pray for the dead if we might be wasting our time?

They are pointless insofar as the repose of someone's soul. hell = not getting out, ever. Kinda like praying for Satan to once again be the highest angel-- it's not happening.
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#49
(12-18-2012, 06:20 PM)SMKMI Wrote:
(12-18-2012, 06:12 PM)Hanno Wrote:
(12-18-2012, 05:58 PM)SMKMI Wrote: He's dead. That means he is either in: 1) heaven 2) purgatory 3) hell.

If 1, praying for his soul is pointless, as he has the beatific vision and he will be responding to prayers with his own. If 2, it will help him get to heaven quicker and he will pray for those kind souls in the Church Militant who prayed for him. If 3, irrevocably pointless.

I see nothing to indicate he is in the state of 1 or 2, unless he had a moment of perfect contrition before committing suicide... think about that.

Praying for any suicide would generally suppose that the person repented in their last instant of life.  It's unlikely, but not impossible.  People who lose a loved one to suicide can hold out such a hope.  But that's not the only reason a suicide might be in purgatory.  Their culpability could be lessened by things like mental illness or prescription drugs.

You might see nothing to indicate the shooter is purgatory, but none of us are God so we just can't know.

Even if a soul is in hell, are our prayers for them "irrevocably pointless"?  Given that we can't know who's in hell outside of Judas, why would the Church exhort us to pray for the dead if we might be wasting our time?

They are pointless insofar as the repose of someone's soul. hell = not getting out, ever. Kinda like praying for Satan to once again be the highest angel-- it's not happening.

Except that Satan is divinely revealed to be in Hell.  Lanza isn't.
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Go thy ways, old Jack;
die when thou wilt, if manhood, good manhood, be
not forgot upon the face of the earth, then am I a
shotten herring. There live not three good men
unhanged in England; and one of them is fat and
grows old: God help the while! a bad world, I say.
I would I were a weaver; I could sing psalms or any
thing. A plague of all cowards, I say still.
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#50
(12-18-2012, 06:20 PM)SMKMI Wrote: They are pointless insofar as the repose of someone's soul. hell = not getting out, ever. Kinda like praying for Satan to once again be the highest angel-- it's not happening.

Right, but the prayers are addressed to God.  Does he just toss them into the abyss?  The Church he established tells us to pray for the dead.  Are we often wasting our time with that?  How am I supposed to know if the people I'm praying for are in hell or not?
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