CDF Müller: Catholics ought to avoid extremes
#81
(12-21-2012, 01:51 PM)Old Salt Wrote: When I occasionally go to a conservative NO [no altar serviettes, Gregorian Chant] almost all the faithful men wear suits and the ladies wear dresses.

They all recieve kneeling on the tongue and no one, no one,that I have noticed skips genuflecting at the right times.

The pastor has 5 hours of scheduled confession a week and he stresses the absolute need that we all go to confession at least once per month to help avoid mortal sin.
This parish is not exceptional.

What's the name of the Church?  Do they have a website?  If so, post it.  Also, what are the neighboring Churches like? 

Do you seriously think, that is the standard, run of the mill Novus Ordo situation? 
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#82
(12-21-2012, 02:59 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 01:30 PM)Meg Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 01:08 PM)Gerard Wrote: Go to a typical conservative Novus Ordo and you'll eventually skip a genuflection, you'll hear sermons trashing imperfect contrition, you'll stop wearing a suit and tie, you might not stick around so long to say your prayers of thanksgiving. 

I can name many, many other instances of moderate modernism that plague the majority of the Churches and parishes. 

Are you really so sure that we will ultimately be judged by having not ever skipped an genuflection, or for men, always wearing a suit and tie, or staying a long time to say prayers of thanksgiving after Mass? I can't comment on what you meant, though, by sermons trashing imperfect contrition, because I don't understand what you mean by this.

If we look for or otherwise scrutinize for imperfections we will find them - even at a TLM.

I'm talking about the lowering of standards that tends to only pick up speed as time goes by.  Comparing a Novus Ordo that was "conservative" by what was being done in 1974 or 1975 when people had strong memories of the TLM, a lot of reverence and behavior was still being done.  Move to a modern day Novus Ordo which is considered conservative and it would be a scandal by the 1975 standards.

In one of the most recent Novus Ordos I attended, the sermon/ homily was the priest saying how horrible it was that people would go to confession with a reason being that they were afraid of going to Hell.  In other words because people didn't have perfect contrition  but rather a healthy fear of the Lord and the punishment of Hell, he thought that was terrible.   In other words, he was trashing the good because it wasn't the perfect.  There's more concerning that particular priest as well but I won't get into it here. 

Thanks for the explanation. I would agree that a modern conservative Novus Ordo would be considered scandalous by the old standards. But most Novus Ordo attendees don't know that, or they can't see why the significant difference in level of reverent worship is important. I don't think that they get it at all. As such, are they really culpable?

In St. Alphonsus' day, the main reason why he started the Redemptorist missions is because of the appalling lack of proper catechesis of the people in the countryside villages where he would sometimes go and preach. The situation in Neopolitan Italy, in those days, was that there were actually too many priests, and many of them still lived at home and didn't do anything to serve the people, but lived very secular and often sinful lives. St Alphonsus wanted to change this by trying to properly catechize the people by sending his priests on missions all over that part of Italy. He faced much opposition, but he never gave up. And he didn't spend a lot of time blaming others. When he had a setback - which was often - he would prayerfully consider his next move, and he would also seek the advice of his superior, who often gave him bad advice, but he did as he was told anyway.
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#83
(12-19-2012, 07:40 PM)Me Wrote: Has he ever cared to mention what "errors" the SSPX are in?  Old Salt, how does the SSPX tell the faithful to break the first precept of the Church (going to Mass on Sundays and HDOs)?

Based on the responses to my post, the SSPX does not tell the faithful directly to break the first precept of the Church, but rather there is dispute over how exactly it should be interpreted.  It is perfectly legitimate and correct to advise the faithful not to attend the NO, even if it is the only option, since the typical NO is sacrilegious and un-Catholic.  It is also perfectly fine to tell the faithful not to attend sedevacantist Masses, since they are nearly as schismatic as protestantism.  The question, then, is whether or not diocesan or "indult" TLMs are okay.  The official SSPX position seems to be that it is not okay (http://www.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q13_frater..._peter.htm), and this is understandable.  In cases of grave necessity, an FSSP priest or even an NO priest would be better than nothing.  Thus, it is wrong to say that the SSPX tells the faithful to break the first precept of the Church -- they do not tell the faithful to break anything, and the only part of their interpretation that is not entirely straightforward is their judgment on indult Masses.

What other doctrinal errors does Archbishop Müller believe the SSPX to be in?  Regarding the issue of accepting Vatican II, how can one say this is a doctrinal error when VII was the "pastoral council" that didn't define any dogma?  From an objective standpoint, the SSPX embraces the whole Catholic faith more than the !NewChurch does, since the Catholic faith is represented more wholly in the traditional rites than in the Novus Ordo.

(P.S. -- If you have any experience in programming, you will understand my use of the term "!NewChurch" with the exclamation mark before it.)
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#84
(12-21-2012, 01:51 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 01:08 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 11:41 AM)Old Salt Wrote: There is a Crisis in the Institutional Church and there are sacriligous Mass's, but they are in the minority, in my experience, and in the experiences of many I know.

I lose Faith because of my own sinfulness, not because of something I have no control over.

LIe down with dogs and you get up with fleas. 

Go to a typical conservative Novus Ordo and you'll eventually skip a genuflection, you'll hear sermons trashing imperfect contrition, you'll stop wearing a suit and tie, you might not stick around so long to say your prayers of thanksgiving. 

I can name many, many other instances of moderate modernism that plague the majority of the Churches and parishes. 
When I occasionally go to a conservative NO [no altar serviettes, Gregorian Chant] almost all the faithful men wear suits and the ladies wear dresses.

They all recieve kneeling on the tongue and no one, no one,that I have noticed skips genuflecting at the right times.

The pastor has 5 hours of scheduled confession a week and he stresses the absolute need that we all go to confession at least once per month to help avoid mortal sin.
This parish is not exceptional.

Not exceptionalHuh? In what world? Just where is this place? Address? Website? I can guarantee you that such a service in my are would be a freak of nature - and there are almost a million in this diocese.
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#85
(12-21-2012, 05:30 PM)cunctas_haereses Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 01:51 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 01:08 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 11:41 AM)Old Salt Wrote: There is a Crisis in the Institutional Church and there are sacriligous Mass's, but they are in the minority, in my experience, and in the experiences of many I know.

I lose Faith because of my own sinfulness, not because of something I have no control over.

LIe down with dogs and you get up with fleas. 

Go to a typical conservative Novus Ordo and you'll eventually skip a genuflection, you'll hear sermons trashing imperfect contrition, you'll stop wearing a suit and tie, you might not stick around so long to say your prayers of thanksgiving. 

I can name many, many other instances of moderate modernism that plague the majority of the Churches and parishes. 
When I occasionally go to a conservative NO [no altar serviettes, Gregorian Chant] almost all the faithful men wear suits and the ladies wear dresses.

They all recieve kneeling on the tongue and no one, no one,that I have noticed skips genuflecting at the right times.

The pastor has 5 hours of scheduled confession a week and he stresses the absolute need that we all go to confession at least once per month to help avoid mortal sin.
This parish is not exceptional.

Not exceptionalHuh? In what world? Just where is this place? Address? Website? I can guarantee you that such a service in my are would be a freak of nature - and there are almost a million in this diocese.

I suspect it's in Shangri la!
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#86
(12-21-2012, 05:30 PM)cunctas_haereses Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 01:51 PM)Old Salt Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 01:08 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 11:41 AM)Old Salt Wrote: There is a Crisis in the Institutional Church and there are sacriligous Mass's, but they are in the minority, in my experience, and in the experiences of many I know.

I lose Faith because of my own sinfulness, not because of something I have no control over.

LIe down with dogs and you get up with fleas. 

Go to a typical conservative Novus Ordo and you'll eventually skip a genuflection, you'll hear sermons trashing imperfect contrition, you'll stop wearing a suit and tie, you might not stick around so long to say your prayers of thanksgiving. 

I can name many, many other instances of moderate modernism that plague the majority of the Churches and parishes. 
When I occasionally go to a conservative NO [no altar serviettes, Gregorian Chant] almost all the faithful men wear suits and the ladies wear dresses.

They all recieve kneeling on the tongue and no one, no one,that I have noticed skips genuflecting at the right times.

The pastor has 5 hours of scheduled confession a week and he stresses the absolute need that we all go to confession at least once per month to help avoid mortal sin.
This parish is not exceptional.

Not exceptionalHuh? In what world? Just where is this place? Address? Website? I can guarantee you that such a service in my are would be a freak of nature - and there are almost a million in this diocese.

I'll second that. I attend the NO Mass regularly, and my experience is: (1) A significant number of people receive on the tongue, but they are in the minority; (2) Almost nobody receives kneeling (I might see this once or twice a month); (3) People genuflect pretty regularly, but often half-heartedly (just bend the knee slightly, more like a curtsy); (4) Our Parish has confession once a week, for about an hour on Thursday afternoon (when most people are at work), and even that is often cancelled due to conflicts with other things; (5) There are a few suits and dresses at Sunday Mass, but they are in the minority. What Old Salt describes seems extremely exceptional to me.
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#87
(12-21-2012, 03:02 PM)Gerard Wrote:
(12-21-2012, 01:51 PM)Old Salt Wrote: When I occasionally go to a conservative NO [no altar serviettes, Gregorian Chant] almost all the faithful men wear suits and the ladies wear dresses.

They all recieve kneeling on the tongue and no one, no one,that I have noticed skips genuflecting at the right times.

The pastor has 5 hours of scheduled confession a week and he stresses the absolute need that we all go to confession at least once per month to help avoid mortal sin.
This parish is not exceptional.

What's the name of the Church?  Do they have a website?  If so, post it.   Also, what are the neighboring Churches like? 

Do you seriously think, that is the standard, run of the mill Novus Ordo situation? 
It is St Josephs in Raleigh NC.

And there are a good number of parishes like this in the Raleigh and Charlotte Dioceses.

I am sure there are many abusive NO Masses, but I rarelt experience one here.
Honestly.
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