Daily vitamins?
#51
I can imagine some kind of supplement regimen doing a lot of noticeable good if one has been very sick or injured, but I've never noticed any benefit from any supplements I've taken.  Has anyone else?
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#52
(01-13-2013, 05:58 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: I can imagine some kind of supplement regimen doing a lot of noticeable good if one has been very sick or injured, but I've never noticed any benefit from any supplements I've taken.  Has anyone else?

A well balanced diet is mostly sufficient for a sound intake of essential vitamins and minerals and they are also delivered to the body in a manner that is conducive to their absorption. Supplements are just that...a supplement and generally they, and the mega-doses of synthetic vitamins that so many take, are what I commented about how Americans are said to have the most expensive urine in the world.

Fact is, if you're concerned about absorption, do like Dr. Bombay, eat the children's vitamins (without iron for the average male) that you can chew up or get the liquid forms. Many, or the pill forms will often be excreted in the same form they were taken. At any rate, its best to take the vitamins, no matter the form, with a meal. Food aids in absorption of the vitamin and helps to breakdown the inert coatings and carriers that the pill makers use to contain the vitamins/minerals/etc. in.

A healthy male, BTW, can get a daily supply of iron from merely eating food prepared on an iron skillet. Too much iron can cause polycythemia, for one, and is the most common side effect.
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#53
(01-13-2013, 05:58 PM)per_passionem_eius Wrote: I can imagine some kind of supplement regimen doing a lot of noticeable good if one has been very sick or injured, but I've never noticed any benefit from any supplements I've taken.  Has anyone else?

I have, however, as advised before, supplements can easily be a waste of money.

The noticeable good were:

* When I was a teenager, I had a severe nutritional deficiency which was fixed with supplements, and then I took probiotics and became a vegan and then stopped taking supplements. That led to rapid and visible improvement.
* A seasonal allergy (grass allergy...May and June congestion) was/is cured with Stinging Nettle (freeze dried). Worked like magic: http://www.amazon.com/Planetary-Herbals-...000GFJJ6U/ (note, it is just the plant freeze dried and compressed into a tablet...eating the plant would have the same benefit for this).
* Recently, a Glucosamine, MSM, CMO supplement MAY have aided in recovery of an elbow sprain and a minor knee issue. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000V8BD0C/
* The multivitamin I take is to make up for any deficiencies in my diet or lifestyle I cannot control. I am at risk of a Vitamin D deficiency (work at night, and barely see the sun and I do not eat animals), and if there are mineral deficiencies in the foods I eat (mineral content depends on the soil where the plants are grown), I would not know. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001GAOGLM/

As I stated, food supplements should be seen as food.
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#54
(01-13-2013, 09:32 PM)Zedta Wrote: Fact is, if you're concerned about absorption, do like Dr. Bombay, eat the children's vitamins (without iron for the average male) that you can chew up or get the liquid forms. Many, or the pill forms will often be excreted in the same form they were taken. At any rate, its best to take the vitamins, no matter the form, with a meal. Food aids in absorption of the vitamin and helps to breakdown the inert coatings and carriers that the pill makers use to contain the vitamins/minerals/etc. in.
When I started the multivitamin, I found that Riboflavin was being excreted excessively, so I took the tablet right after (or in the middle) of eating and this did not happen again. They do not contain mega doses of Riboflavin.

Quote:A healthy male, BTW, can get a daily supply of iron from merely eating food prepared on an iron skillet. Too much iron can cause polycythemia, for one, and is the most common side effect.
I take no iron supplements, use no iron implements, and I am a vegan and do not think I get foods with added iron. I have no iron deficiency. I do not think iron is a concern for most men.
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#55
(01-13-2013, 09:32 PM)Zedta Wrote: Too much iron can cause polycythemia, for one, and is the most common side effect.

Uhhhh...no, not quite.  It could probably cause some iron overload, but not polycythemia.  Your body wont start pumping out extra red blood cells simply because you're taking in extra iron (otherwise Lance Armstrong would have been all over that).  Polycythemia is either primary (polycythemia vera) or secondary (too much EPO for any number of reasons).

/nerd
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#56
Heinrich Wrote:Oh, boy. I mentioned a few pages back that I use the generic version from Natural Grocers. But to be honest, my gunslinger Brother, I just do not feel comfortable giving advice in this situation. While I did to the OP, I assumed he was in the normal ranges of health(as I am). I was recommending on my years of personal experience, not as a nutritionist or health professional. Please be assured of my prayers.

I understand completely, bud. No worries. I suppose if one is to take Whey for muscle mass the most basic advice that's applicable in all cases is to go for the concentrate and not the isolate and find organic sources, no?
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#57
(01-14-2013, 01:06 AM)Joshua Wrote:
Heinrich Wrote:Oh, boy. I mentioned a few pages back that I use the generic version from Natural Grocers. But to be honest, my gunslinger Brother, I just do not feel comfortable giving advice in this situation. While I did to the OP, I assumed he was in the normal ranges of health(as I am). I was recommending on my years of personal experience, not as a nutritionist or health professional. Please be assured of my prayers.

I understand completely, bud. No worries. I suppose if one is to take Whey for muscle mass the most basic advice that's applicable in all cases is to go for the concentrate and not the isolate and find organic sources, no?

I do not think supplementing a macronutrient is useful except under medical care, but hydrolyzed whey protein would be "better" than isolate or concentrate, however, I still think it is a waste of money. It would be like paying a premium for a carbohydrate supplement powder instead of eating a banana.

Supplements make it easy to take mega doses, so be careful not to eat too much protein on your own (medical direction is another thing, but a protein supplement does make it easy to consume far more protein than one normally could). The bodybuilder mantra of a gram per pound of bodyweight is excessive (it is more of a way to avoid getting too fat while eating, rather than a way to build muscle) and based on people using steroids.



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#58
(01-13-2013, 11:54 PM)Pheo Wrote:
(01-13-2013, 09:32 PM)Zedta Wrote: Too much iron can cause polycythemia, for one, and is the most common side effect.

Uhhhh...no, not quite.  It could probably cause some iron overload, but not polycythemia.  Your body wont start pumping out extra red blood cells simply because you're taking in extra iron (otherwise Lance Armstrong would have been all over that).  Polycythemia is either primary (polycythemia vera) or secondary (too much EPO for any number of reasons).

/nerd

I was referring to clinical polycythemia or secondary polycythemia. For example: Someone with COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease), over time, often develop an increased hemoglobin as a compensatory response to their inability to maintain a normal oxygen level in their blood by the usual means, ie: breathing. It is like adding box cars on a train when the boxcars cannot fill completely, yet a certain supply must be carried. This is not from a metabolic or primary disease condition of the types you cited. This is a response to the need for more oxygen and in people who take too much iron, the first thing that happens is the hemoglobin increases. In a healthy person, this does not last long. Another example is people who live at altitude, like 7,000 feet up or so. In the beginning of their living at this altitude, they may experience High Altitude Sickness. They are somewhat like the COPD'er who cannot supply enough oxygen to their bodies, but are healthy otherwise. The healthy one compensates by hyperventilation which leads to the Altitude Sickness. Over a few days, one adjusts, by process of adding red cells to the blood stream. One acclimates and soon the symptoms resolve. When you eat too much iron, the very first symptom is increased red cell count and by definition, that is polycythemia. But it is transitory and the body compensates over a time and reverts to normal levels, but there is still excess iron around and that leads to other problems. That is also why some athletes train at altitude for a competition at a lower altitude. When they race, they have an advantage by being able to carry more oxygen in their blood streams. Oxygen is primarily carried on the hemoglobin in the red cell. Only a very small (3%) amount is carried in the serum.

The longer (I am talking in days here) effects of excess iron are more pronounced, with nausea and vomiting and swelling of the liver, kidneys and pancreas and eventually lead to Hemochromatosis. Iron is not excreted. It remains in the body and you loose it through your hair or nails...not much in those places, but that is primarily where you loose it, or you go and give blood frequently or if you are female and premenopause, you excrete it monthly. Not getting enough iron is almost always an absorption or dietary problem.
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#59
(01-14-2013, 11:40 AM)Zedta Wrote: For example: Someone with COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease), over time, often develop an increased hemoglobin as a compensatory response to their inability to maintain a normal oxygen level in their blood by the usual means, ie: breathing.

Yep, that's a secondary polycythemia.  The relative hypoxic state induces EPO production in the kidneys which signals the bone marrow to ramp up production of the erythroid lineage.  Bone marrow starts spitting out more red blood cells than the person actually needs (since they just aren't oxygenating efficiently) and we wind up with a case of secondary polycythemia.

Quote:When you eat too much iron, the very first symptom is increased red cell count and by definition, that is polycythemia.

Your hemoglobin count and iron levels may go up, but your red cell count (or hematocrit) wont - unless it was already low like in cases of iron-deficiency anemia.  Our bodies take the iron they need and store the rest.  And you're right, if you take too much it can eventually lead to some of the many manifestations of hemochromatosis.  But a person's bone marrow doesn't go into overdrive simply because of some extra iron.
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#60
(01-14-2013, 12:14 PM)Pheo Wrote:
(01-14-2013, 11:40 AM)Zedta Wrote: For example: Someone with COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease), over time, often develop an increased hemoglobin as a compensatory response to their inability to maintain a normal oxygen level in their blood by the usual means, ie: breathing.

Yep, that's a secondary polycythemia.  The relative hypoxic state induces EPO production in the kidneys which signals the bone marrow to ramp up production of the erythroid lineage.  Bone marrow starts spitting out more red blood cells than the person actually needs (since they just aren't oxygenating efficiently) and we wind up with a case of secondary polycythemia.

Quote:When you eat too much iron, the very first symptom is increased red cell count and by definition, that is polycythemia.

Your hemoglobin count and iron levels may go up, but your red cell count (or hematocrit) wont - unless it was already low like in cases of iron-deficiency anemia.  Our bodies take the iron they need and store the rest.  And you're right, if you take too much it can eventually lead to some of the many manifestations of hemochromatosis.  But a person's bone marrow doesn't go into overdrive simply because of some extra iron.

Its a fine line, but the base of that line is that you shouldn't take iron supplements if you are male and have an otherwise normal Hb/Hct. Besides, they can constipate the heck out of you.
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