Statistics needed for decline of church but can't be from sspx site
#11
In some places, the church has grown significcantly since the second Vatican Council.
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#12
(12-31-2012, 06:20 AM)Poche Wrote: In some places, the church has grown significcantly since the second Vatican Council.
Could you give some examples?

I know that the New-Springtimers always claim this growth, but they are using absolute numbers. Then it is not really difficult to find a "growth" in the statistics, considering that the world population has more than doubled since Vatican II. E.g. in South America the number of Catholics has "grown" significantly, while in reality the Catholic population dropped from more than 90% to around 60%, and even below 50% in some Countries.
Some areas (e.g. in the U.S.) have had relative growth, due to immigration, but this is not real growth as well, because the people would also have been Catholic had they stayed where they emigrated from.

The only place with real growth I am aware of is East Timor, which is an interesting aspect by itself. The Church was seen as an integral part of the independence movement and therefore attracted a lot of East Timoreans who were not Catholic but never felt as Indonesians.
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#13
Nigeria, Cameroon, The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Togo, Ghana, in fact most of Sub-Saharan Africa.
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#14
(12-31-2012, 06:57 AM)Poche Wrote: Nigeria, Cameroon, The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Togo, Ghana, in fact most of Sub-Saharan Africa.

I'm not denying that the Church may have grown in these countries. However, my own experience of a number of Catholics from the Congo is that they are very poorly catechised and in most cases see no difference between going to Mass and going to a Protestant service. Further, none of the couples with children I have met who are Catholic are actually married and see no pressing need to sanctify their union. It's not encouraging.
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#15
(12-31-2012, 06:57 AM)Poche Wrote: Nigeria, Cameroon, The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Togo, Ghana, in fact most of Sub-Saharan Africa.

Since men have multiple wives and girlfriends and Catholic priests often have female partners in those countries, then it should hardly come as a surprise that it is growing.  Do a little research and you'll discover the situation there is pretty sordid.
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#16
(12-31-2012, 06:57 AM)Poche Wrote: Nigeria, Cameroon, The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Togo, Ghana, in fact most of Sub-Saharan Africa.
I am not aware that the religious affiliations (by tribe) in these Countries changed much after Vatican II, even though of course the number of people have grown significantly.
The Biafra War of Nigeria (Muslims against the Catholic Igbo people) started shortly after the second Vatican Council (The Igbo lost). Still the Igbo are Catholic, and the North is under Sharia law.
In Cameroon, still the English speaking areas are protestant, the French speaking are Catholic and the northern regions are Islamic, just as before the Council.
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#17
You could always google "belief in the real presence among Catholics" or something similar. A study came out a few years back that only 47 percent believe in the real presence making them essentially heretics.
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#18
This is an interesting source on the beliefs of American Catholics:

http://religions.pewforum.org/

In 2008, only 16% of self-identified Catholics professed that the Catholic Church was the only means to salvation. Over 80% agreed that multiple religions lead to heaven.
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#19
(12-31-2012, 09:32 AM)The Dying Flutchman Wrote: You could always google "belief in the real presence among Catholics" or something similar. A study came out a few years back that only 47 percent believe in the real presence making them essentially heretics.

Bishop Fellay in a recent talk said 70 percent of Novus Ordo priests did not believe in the real presence, if I heard him right.
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#20
(12-31-2012, 07:45 AM)ggreg Wrote:
(12-31-2012, 06:57 AM)Poche Wrote: Nigeria, Cameroon, The Democratic Republic of the Congo, Togo, Ghana, in fact most of Sub-Saharan Africa.

Since men have multiple wives and girlfriends and Catholic priests often have female partners in those countries, then it should hardly come as a surprise that it is growing.  Do a little research and you'll discover the situation there is pretty sordid.

I have heard of men attending Mass in company with wife and mistress with no reproach from the priest.
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