Innocent III: Saint Peter's Successors Will At No Time Deviate From the Faith
#41
Well, here is a real quote from Saint Pope Leo IX (note the "nor will fail up to the end"):

[Image: leoix.png]

from: D. L. d'Avray, "Origins of the Idea of Infallibility: A Rejoinder to Professor Tierney," in The Catholic Historical Review, Vol. 67, No. 1 (Jan., 1981), 64.

The full letter can be read in the original Latin here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rIkEAAAAQAAJ&dq=Acta%20et%20scripta%20will&pg=PA65#v=onepage&q&f=false
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#42
(01-09-2013, 11:28 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Following the citations you and JMartyr provided neither Cardinal Newman nor Patrick Granfield mention Innocent's quote. They do mention Torquemada's first brief quote which you provided.

Looking at the original Torquemada I don't see anything in Chapter 49 of Book II of the Summa de Ecclesia about Innocent III. Granted my Latin is not that great and I haven't fully translated the chapter.  If you could point out where Innocent III is quoted that would be of great help to me!

I see a reference to Pope Innocent I's excommunication of the Emperor on pg. 160, but that's all I see about any Pope Innocents in this section of the book.   

My apologies if I am being blind, but Latin is hard for me. 

http://books.google.com/books?id=vwXO-8kA4qMC&pg=PT352#v=onepage&q&f=false

I provided the link to provide a possible source for the first quote. While the second quote is taken from a book by Fr. Kramer, I do not claim to know anything about the origin of it. I have never found it myself and I don't know whence Fr. Kramer obtained it. I have never even read any of Fr. Kramer's books.

I would like to point out, however, that there are many others who taught similar teachings to the alleged text from Innocent III: Francisco Suarez taught, with the approval of the Church, that the pope could become a schismatic (I can find it for you if you would like); St. Francis de Sales, St. Robert Bellarmine, St. Antoninus, and St. Alphonsus (the latter of whose opinions, by themselves, the Holy See itself holds as "solidly probable") all taught that the pope could become a heretic; and Pope Paul IV taught by his authority that the pope is to be resisted if he deviates from the Faith. But that is for a different thread, I suppose.
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#43
So it doesn't matter at all that "the most popular quote on this subject" can't be sourced?

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#44
(01-10-2013, 05:07 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: So it doesn't matter at all that "the most popular quote on this subject" can't be sourced?

The most popular quote referred to the first part, which has been sourced. The second part was taken from someone's book, which isn't the quote for which I was providing a cite.
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#45
So can we agree trads should not use the following quote as we don't have any attribution to a primary source:

Quote:" that it is necessary to obey a Pope in all things as long as he does not go against the universal customs of the Church, but should he go against the universal customs of the Church, He need not be followed"
-Innocent III
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#46
(01-10-2013, 05:44 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(01-10-2013, 05:07 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: So it doesn't matter at all that "the most popular quote on this subject" can't be sourced?

The most popular quote referred to the first part, which has been sourced. The second part was taken from someone's book, which isn't the quote for which I was providing a cite.

Also, you said the Pope Innocent III quote that JMartyr provided was the most popular quote on the subject. That's the quote we don't have a citation for.  No one had quoted the quote from Torquemada that we can verify until you posted it.  Why did you provide me so many citations to a quote that wasn't at issue in this thread?
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#47
(01-10-2013, 06:06 PM)Someone1776 Wrote:
(01-10-2013, 05:44 PM)INPEFESS Wrote:
(01-10-2013, 05:07 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: So it doesn't matter at all that "the most popular quote on this subject" can't be sourced?

The most popular quote referred to the first part, which has been sourced. The secondary part was taken from someone's book, which isn't the quote for which I was providing a cite.

Also, you said the Pope Innocent III quote that JMartyr provided was the most popular quote on the subject. That's the quote we don't have a citation for.  No one had quoted the quote from Torquemada that we can verify until you posted it.  Why did you provide me so many citations to a quote that wasn't at issue in this thread?

You're right. I thought we were referring to the legitimate resistance of a pope who commands something against the teachings of the Church. The original quote was similar (universal customs) but not what I thought it was; I confused the two. I apologize for misreading it and for the confusion I caused.
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