An Observation
#1
I recently ended the discerning of a relationship with someone I met on a Catholic dating site (it was a mutual decision), but during that time we were discerning, I visited her half a dozen times in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia.  In those visits, I came to a conclusion regarding the Church and my relationship with it.  I am a convert.  Had I converted in that Archdiocese, I would have fled to the TLM right away.

I go to a Novus Ordo, it's all that is offered in my diocese as far as I know, but other than some rather "small" overall abuses, it's not usually that bad, at least to me.  Then I went to visit her.  The first parish we went to, the priest kept trying to make a joke out of everything and he asked all the guests to stand up and for the parish to applaud the guests for visiting.  Twitch-worthy, yes, but not too bad yet, in comparison.  Some of the other parishes, including her home parish?  30 minutes for a Sunday Mass due to barreling through it full speed.  People complaining about how "Father shouldn't be shoving things down our throats" at the most wishy-washy homily I've ever heard since converting about 4 years prior.  Entire parts of the Mass skipped.  I nearly caused a pile up at the EMHC in one parish by bowing and was shot a dirty look at the EMHC for bowing.  People being urged by their fellow parishoners to sit while the vessels were purified and as the vessels were purified, announcements were read from the church bulletin (the glares I got for continuing to kneel on the floor...).  I lost count at one parish at the tenth liturgical abuse that was serious enough for me to notice!

In three years on Fish Eaters, mostly lurking, I never really saw why so many people were so dead set against the Novus Ordo.  However, if I had come to the Church in that Archdiocese, I know that I would definitely go to the Traditional Latin Mass exclusively, because there would be no other choice.


 
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#2
Imagine what you would be saying if you attended mass in 12th Century France:

Quote:Priests and clerks.. dance in the choir dressed as women.. they sing wanton songs. They eat black pudding at the altar itself, while the celebrant is saying Mass. They play dice on the altar. They cense with stinking smoke from the soles of old shoes. They run and leap throughout the church, without a blush of their own shame. Finally they drive about the town and its theatres in shabby carriages and carts, and rouse the laughter of their fellows and the bystanders in infamous performances, with indecent gestures and with scurrilous and unchaste words.
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#3
It is not the Novus Ordo that I am against. I am against it when there are serious abuses that are routine
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#4
(01-08-2013, 10:29 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Imagine what you would be saying if you attended mass in 12th Century France:

Quote:Priests and clerks.. dance in the choir dressed as women.. they sing wanton songs. They eat black pudding at the altar itself, while the celebrant is saying Mass. They play dice on the altar. They cense with stinking smoke from the soles of old shoes. They run and leap throughout the church, without a blush of their own shame. Finally they drive about the town and its theatres in shabby carriages and carts, and rouse the laughter of their fellows and the bystanders in infamous performances, with indecent gestures and with scurrilous and unchaste words.

Someone,

What's that from?  I find it super interesting.  Sounds a lot like Corinth...
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#5
(01-08-2013, 10:29 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Imagine what you would be saying if you attended mass in 12th Century France:

Quote:Priests and clerks.. dance in the choir dressed as women.. they sing wanton songs. They eat black pudding at the altar itself, while the celebrant is saying Mass. They play dice on the altar. They cense with stinking smoke from the soles of old shoes. They run and leap throughout the church, without a blush of their own shame. Finally they drive about the town and its theatres in shabby carriages and carts, and rouse the laughter of their fellows and the bystanders in infamous performances, with indecent gestures and with scurrilous and unchaste words.

As Someone probably knows, he is describing pranks played by a group of medieval students.  In the middle ages, most if not all students were minor clergy.  Think of Master Nicholas in the Miller's Tale.  The students were intending to be sacrilegious.  He is not describing an ordinary mass in the middle ages, or a "reformed mass" of the period.  It wasn't even a medieval version of a clown mass, which as we know,  are meant to be valid, though they are not.  So, unless you were a member of a university college or chapter house, you would not have attended these "performances." 


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#6
(01-08-2013, 10:29 PM)Someone1776 Wrote: Imagine what you would be saying if you attended mass in 12th Century France:

Quote:Priests and clerks.. dance in the choir dressed as women.. they sing wanton songs. They eat black pudding at the altar itself, while the celebrant is saying Mass. They play dice on the altar. They cense with stinking smoke from the soles of old shoes. They run and leap throughout the church, without a blush of their own shame. Finally they drive about the town and its theatres in shabby carriages and carts, and rouse the laughter of their fellows and the bystanders in infamous performances, with indecent gestures and with scurrilous and unchaste words.

:eyeroll:

Go join Caf, it's just your scene
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#7
(01-09-2013, 12:21 PM)Warrenton Wrote: As Someone probably knows, he is describing pranks played by a group of medieval students.  In the middle ages, most if not all students were minor clergy.  Think of Master Nicholas in the Miller's Tale.  The students were intending to be sacrilegious.  He is not describing an ordinary mass in the middle ages, or a "reformed mass" of the period.  It wasn't even a medieval version of a clown mass, which as we know,  are meant to be valid, though they are not.   So, unless you were a member of a university college or chapter house, you would not have attended these "performances." 

Sounds like they protested at real Masses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliard
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#8
(01-09-2013, 05:15 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(01-09-2013, 12:21 PM)Warrenton Wrote: As Someone probably knows, he is describing pranks played by a group of medieval students.  In the middle ages, most if not all students were minor clergy.  Think of Master Nicholas in the Miller's Tale.  The students were intending to be sacrilegious.  He is not describing an ordinary mass in the middle ages, or a "reformed mass" of the period.  It wasn't even a medieval version of a clown mass, which as we know,  are meant to be valid, though they are not.   So, unless you were a member of a university college or chapter house, you would not have attended these "performances." 

Sounds like they protested at real Masses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliard

:shrug: Still wasn't because the priest thought it was fine or people thought they should have a song and dance, it was a protest movement, never sanctioned by the Church and certainly not in the sense of the NO widespread or inherent to the actual mass itself, whereas as has been shown conclusively and notwithstanding some peoples refusal to accept it the NO lends itself per se to such  liturgical abuses and even directly sanctions them. It's one thing to break the rules and commit sacrilege, its quite another when the rules themselves sanction sacrilege.
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#9
(01-09-2013, 05:15 PM)Scriptorium Wrote:
(01-09-2013, 12:21 PM)Warrenton Wrote: As Someone probably knows, he is describing pranks played by a group of medieval students.  In the middle ages, most if not all students were minor clergy.  Think of Master Nicholas in the Miller's Tale.  The students were intending to be sacrilegious.  He is not describing an ordinary mass in the middle ages, or a "reformed mass" of the period.  It wasn't even a medieval version of a clown mass, which as we know,  are meant to be valid, though they are not.   So, unless you were a member of a university college or chapter house, you would not have attended these "performances." 

Sounds like they protested at real Masses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliard

As students are apt to do, they probably "protested" official masses at collegiate churches to get a bigger audience, as well as at the chapels attached to their chapters.  I think "prank" is more on point - hard to see eating blood pudding as much of a protest, any more than running around naked is nowadays, notwithstanding the earnest words of the young ladies who do.  Some of the pranksters might even have been priests; bear in mind young men could be ordained at a much younger age, especially if they were fortunate enough to be college men.  The blessed sacrament was not confected with black pudding any more then than now. 
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#10
Today I learned a lot about the 12th century and forms of protest and/or pranks. :)
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