Knights of Columbus promotes Americanism heresy?, sin to associate with KofC‽
#31
(05-23-2013, 02:54 AM)Poche Wrote: The origin of the the Knights of Columbus was to be the anti-mason.
    So I thought. But our closet Novus Ordo KofC has their building next door to the Freemasons. They even ride on the Fremason float in KofC uniform during our local Memorial Day parade, right with the Masons!
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#32
(05-23-2013, 08:46 AM)DiligereEstPati Wrote:
(05-23-2013, 02:54 AM)Poche Wrote: The origin of the the Knights of Columbus was to be the anti-mason.
     So I thought. But our closet Novus Ordo KofC has their building next door to the Freemasons. They even ride on the Fremason float in KofC uniform during our local Memorial Day parade, right with the Masons!

Such is my problem with the modern KoC. There is a great danger in aping imagery, even reappropriating imagery which was originally stolen, if we do not have the solid teaching of why, etc.

I think the Novus Ordo is a perfect example of this, as it is true that elements of the Novus Ordo were found in pre-Protestant era Catholicism in certain areas. Those things were, in part, aped by the Protestants. Now, having no idea of history and such, the NO attending Catholics see Protestantism heavy. In fact, as a convert, the NO Mass was no big deal to me. "Oh, they have a valid consecration?" OK, but I saw more reverent NO style services when in the Methodists. Is it Catholic? In the loosest of senses, couched in history. Academically, sure. To many a modern peasant's pea-brain, myself included, it's liturgically Protestant. In short, what we see in the KoC who think they are Catholic Freemasons is the product of an experiment which allow Protestant Catholics because the liturgy pushes them there.

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#33
They were not to be the unmasons. They were to sell life insurance.

Part of the reason people are upset is because they want the Knights to be something they are not.
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#34
I was always under the impression they were formed to counter Freemasons, which is why they look like Freemasons. The Masons certainly aped Catholic imagery... they weren't just taking it back? 

Just to sell life insurance? What a joke. No other purpose? Their own history disagrees:

Quote:He proposed establishing a lay organization, the goal of which would be to prevent Catholic men from entering secret societies whose membership was antithetical to Church teaching, to unite men of Catholic faith and to provide for the families of deceased members.
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/about/history/index.html

It seems the goal indeed was to counter Freemasons and the issue of insurance was due to the "charity" (really philanthropy) of the Freemasons and other societies which addressed those temporal needs.

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#35
(05-23-2013, 01:46 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: I was always under the impression they were formed to counter Freemasons, which is why they look like Freemasons. The Masons certainly aped Catholic imagery... they weren't just taking it back? 

Just to sell life insurance? What a joke. No other purpose? Their own history disagrees:

Quote:He proposed establishing a lay organization, the goal of which would be to prevent Catholic men from entering secret societies whose membership was antithetical to Church teaching, to unite men of Catholic faith and to provide for the families of deceased members.
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/about/history/index.html

It seems the goal indeed was to counter Freemasons and the issue of insurance was due to the "charity" (really philanthropy) of the Freemasons and other societies which addressed those temporal needs.

Some quick comments for now …

This is true.  A major desire of Fr. McGivney was to provide for windows and orphans as the young Catholic immigrant husbands and fathers were often employed in dangerous positions and died young.  This was accomplished through the life insurance program (and one of the smartest financial decisions I’ve ever made was to start a policy when I was young; just being able to borrow against the cash value has helped me through a couple of emergencies).  My mother was certainly grateful for the KC insurance program when my father was killed in an accident.  It helped us save the family farm.

Having read the biography of Fr. McGivney, he also wanted to have an organization where Catholic men could grow in their faith, enjoy fellowship, engage in wholesome cultural activities, and not be lured away into other non-Catholic organizations.  He began by forming soladalities for these purposes in the parishes he served.  Evidently in his time these types of groups were popular for Catholic women but there wasn’t much for men.  He also organized literary societies for single young men and women to read and discuss books (wholesome books approved by the church I’m sure) and perhaps meet a good Catholic spouse.  An irony is that from his biography I gleaned that Fr. McGivney insisted that these activities involve no alcohol, as he believed that Irish men drank too much.  The irony is that today the Knights tend to be a very “wet” organization.

This all said, to poise the Knights as the Church’s alternative to the Masons is way, way, way over simplistic.  It was to form a Catholic men’s organization for fellowship, to grow in the faith, to assist the Church, and to sell insurance.  It was styled in some respects after other popular men’s fraternal groups (Masons, Odd Fellows, Elks, Moose, Eagles, Modern Woodmen’s Lodge, Ancient Order of Foresters, etc. etc. etc.).  I’m surmising this may have been a “marketing move” as these types of organizations were popular in that day.”

The Knights, in this format, have been approved and indeed praised by every Supreme Pontiff since 1895, including the “good Popes” Leo XIII, St. Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI, and Venerable Pius XII, as well as all the Pontiffs after these. http://www.kofc.org/un/en/resources/communications/holysee.pdf

As for what the Knights do, it is huge.  I had a “list” but I can’t find it immediately.  They are really the largest anti-abortion group in the world.  They raise millions for pro live causes and are a major supporter of the Special Olympics.  They raise millions to support seminarians and religious.  They have funded the distribution of millions of catechisms Catholic information pieces.  If a parish has a St. Vincent DePaul Conference likely the majority of the men involved are Knights; the women are Catholic Daughters and/or spouses of Knights.  If you wonder how the lawn gets mowed, the light bulbs get changed, the leaves get raked in a parish … it is probable the Knights.  This is especially true in smaller parishes which don’t have a full time staff custodian. 

I’ve belonged for 28 years, being a member in three Councils all in WA State, and a guest member for a year in a Council in ID.  I have NEVER met a Knight who was a Mason.  I have NEVER met a Knight who was “pro choice”.  There are obviously errant Knights, as indeed we are share a fallen human nature.  There have been errant Popes, Bishops, and priests, but a Catholic wouldn’t quit the Church over that would they?  WRC has patiently explained in several different threads that as long as the Church recognizes someone as a practical Catholic so does the order.  It is the way Catholic organizations have always run.  If someone doesn’t like that then don’t join.  It seems rather pointless to complain about an organization one doesn’t belong to though.  While I certainly can’t say I’m happy about there being a small handful of “pro choice” Knights, I find it interesting that every month strong pro life literature is delivered to their home and their annual dues help finance the largest pro life organization in the world (God sometimes works in mysterious ways).  In this era of “lets all get along and be good buddies” some councils perhaps make imprudent decisions about who to jointly participate in an event with.  Again, a very small number.  It has never happened in any of the councils I’ve been affiliated with.

The order will have in most parishes a definitive novus ordo character, if you will.  The Knights say the Rosary A LOT.  You will probable encounter the “Luminious Mysteries” now and again.  They will always say good things about the recent Popes.  Hearing someone say “John Paul the Great” will likely grate on some ears.  If it is not a good fit for someone there are other apostolates to become involved in.  What I don’t understand is the need for some to constantly “trash talk” the Knights, especially when they NEVER propose any alternative avenues for accomplishing what the Knights do.

(05-20-2013, 09:24 PM)Geremia Wrote: Does anyone know how to cancel one's membership with the Knights? I've been getting letters, their heretical Columbia magazine, and calls from knights on insurance policies, and I simply want to delete my name from their records.

My friend has tried, stopped paying his dues, etc., but he still receives Columbia!

I would suggest contacting your Financial Secretary.  If that doesn’t work I would contact the Grand Knight, then the pastor.  You could also contact Supreme in New Haven.  If you have an insurance policy, depending on what state you live in it might be illegal for them to remove you from the rolls until you cash out the policy.  If that is state insurance law they are bound to follow it.  I don’t know precisely what WA law is but if a Knight stops paying his dues here but has insurance in force part of the dividend from his policy is used to pay the dues so the policy remains in force.  If no further premiums are paid the policy value is “frozen” at its current cash value but not canceled, as I understand it.  It would be wrong (and perhaps illegal in some states) for them to take the money that’s been paid  and you have to be a Knight to have the insurance (there are legal requirements involved here also), so that may be an issue.

The Knights are also very strong on both the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy.  It has been the experience that when a Catholic man leaves the Order he often leaves the Church shortly after.  We are dealing with this very situation in my Council now.  They won’t give up easily on helping a brother Knight.
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#36
(05-23-2013, 01:31 PM)WhollyRoaminCatholic Wrote: They were not to be the unmasons. They were to sell life insurance.

Part of the reason people are upset is because they want the Knights to be something they are not.

Catholic?  ???
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#37
(05-23-2013, 02:54 AM)Poche Wrote: The origin of the the Knights of Columbus was to be the anti-mason.
How so?
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#38
(05-24-2013, 01:46 AM)Geremia Wrote:
(05-23-2013, 02:54 AM)Poche Wrote: The origin of the the K
nights of Columbus was to be the anti-mason.
How so?

"He proposed establishing a lay organization, the goal of which would be to prevent Catholic men from entering secret societies whose membership was antithetical to Church teaching, to unite men of Catholic faith and to provide for the families of deceased members."
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/about/history/index.html
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#39
(05-24-2013, 02:00 AM)jonbhorton Wrote:
(05-24-2013, 01:46 AM)Geremia Wrote:
(05-23-2013, 02:54 AM)Poche Wrote: The origin of the the K
nights of Columbus was to be the anti-mason.
How so?

"He proposed establishing a lay organization, the goal of which would be to prevent Catholic men from entering secret societies whose membership was antithetical to Church teaching, to unite men of Catholic faith and to provide for the families of deceased members."
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/about/history/index.html
I get a different impression from this article, which quotes from the excellent history of the Knights by Kauffman:
Quote:The experience in France led to the establishment of a teen auxiliary, the Columbian Squires, in 19221923. The Squires program was intended as "a sort of Catholic YMCA" in the words of Christopher Kauffman. "Besides competing with Protestant youth organizations," he added, "the Order was emulating the Scottish Rite Masons, whose junior order, the DeMolay organization, had been established recently and had experienced rapid growth."10

Following the Scottish Rite in establishing a DeMolay-like youth group was not the only area where the Knights of Columbus seemed to emulate Masonry. As a quasi-secret society, the Order had been ambivalent toward Freemasonry from the beginning. Like the Craft, it thrived upon secrecy, arcane symbols, esoteric signs, passwords, and outlandish regalia. As early as 1892 German-American Catholics said the Order was "a pernicious secret society." And as Christopher Kauffman points out, the suspicions were not limited to German Catholics: "The ceremonial character ...was particularly offensive to conservative Catholics ...striking them as pseudo-Masonry in Catholic garb."11

The reluctance to confront American Masonry was shown in 1907 when the Supreme Council ordered an investigation to see if Freemasonry was a source of antiCatholicism in France and Italy. Fr. Thomas P. Phelan (New York state chaplain), John M. Cleary of the Kansas City Council, andJames E. Reilly, past State Deputy of Rhode Island, comprised the committee to investigate. In 1908 they reported that in France Masonry was "anti-Christian and anti-religious" while in America "the Masonic Lodges are regarded as fraternal and social organizations." The report apparently made no reference to Masonry in Italy, where the Craft had been literally at war with the Papacy for more than a century.12
 

The question of affinity with freemasonry came to a head after the Order's national convention in 1919.The Supreme Council decided to commemorate "the glorious deeds of the American and French armies" in the recent war and voted unanimously to present a statue of the Marquis de Lafayette-"the French defender of American liberty"-to Lafayette's hometown of Metz. When the French government and the city accepted the offer, charges of Catholic Masonry erupted, first in the German-American community, and then amongst Knights of German extraction. Soon disaffection over Masonry threatened to spread to other ethnic groups inside and outside of the Order.

It was a foregone conclusion that the Knights would ignore complaints originating with German Americans. Since John Ireland and James Gibbons first warred against German "refusal" to Americanize in the 1880s and 1890s, Irish Americanists had been openly hostile to German brethren in the Faith. Hostility turned to near-hatred during World War I when animosity was fanned by a US government that spewed forth a steady stream of hate against "the Hun." Wilson's Committee on Public Information (CPI), a thinly disguised Ministry of Propaganda, drilled the populace with song-"Germany began this war, poor Belgium had no chance"-and film-"Kaiser Bill, the Beast of Berlin" featuring the withered arm of Wilhelm II. One of the staples of CPI propaganda that was pro-French apocryphally told how a tear-bedimmed General John J. Pershing, upon arriving in Paris, went straight to Lafayette's tomb, where he knelt reverently, kissed the ground, and whispered "Lafayette, nous voila!" In 1919 most Americans were leery of all things Germanic and receptive to all things French.

This was the situation when German-American newspapers questioned whether a Catholic Order should honor Lafayette, "a notorious Mason." The proposed pilgrimage to Metz "was a disgrace to true Catholic feelings," declared J. M. Weinzapfel, a Knight from Texas who wrote to the Supreme Council demanding an explanation. In his response Supreme Secretary William J. McGinley explained that the statue was intended "to express appreciation of the aid and assistance given by France to the struggling colonies, in which LaFayette was a leader, standing beside Washington almost from the beginning." As historian Kauffman commented, 'McGinley also could have pointed out that there was strong precedent for the Order honoring Freemasons, as most of the heroes of the American revolution were enrolled in Masonic lodes."[Emphasis added]

On August 5, 1920, Supreme KnightJames Flaherty and 235 Knights embarked for France. They were headed for the most pompous demonstration of Columbianism yet, accompanied by a bronze equestrian statue more than seventeen feet in length and height. The statue was described by the Supreme Master of the Fourth Degree:

[T]he whole image appears to [be] a life-like, living, breathing object. Lafayette's face sharp featured, intelligent, aristocratic. The bas-reliefs are finished in Tennessee marble and the front of the pedestal pictures General Pershing [a Mason, ed.] at the tomb, uttering the famous words "Lafayette, we are here." The back depicts Columbus discovering America. One side shows President Wilson delivering his ...war speech to Congress, the other Marshal Foch, whose...genius made possible the victory over Prussianism.

Thousands welcomed the Knights on the day of presentation, August 21. The American ambassador opened the festivities, the statue was unveiled, and Flaherty presented Foch with a marshal's baton from Tiffany's that cost $15,000. Then Foch, a Freemason, embraced a fully-costumed Supreme Knight while stammering emotionally "I welcome you, Knights of Columbus, as the representatives of America. I know your merits because of what you have done in the war. The sentiments that led Lafayette to go to America to fight have prompted you to come to Metz to reassure France that America is ever ready to do her part." At the banquet that evening more than 400 guests enjoyed food and drink amidst constant reassertions of FrancoAmerican unity.13

Notes:
10. Christopher J. Kauffman, Faith and Fraternalism: The History of the Knights of Columbus, 1882-1982 (New York: Harper & Row, 1982), p.256. The YMCA originated in England and America during the second half of the 19th century. It was one of Masonry's "Associated Organizations" that Pope Leo XIII warned Catholics to shun.

11. Ibid., pp. 93-94.

12. Ibid., p.175.

13. Ibid., pp. 231-233.
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#40
One might wonder what makes the “history” by this Kauffman so “excellent”?  Who was he?  What were his scholarly credentials that might equip him to produce an authentic, well researched, peer reviewed, and factual history?

Just from the citation offered it reads like an anti-Irish, anti-French diatribe rather than a dispassionate scholarly report.  And it is a fact that the Germans did indeed start WWI.

Quote:And as Christopher Kauffman points out, the suspicions were not limited to German Catholics: "The ceremonial character ...was particularly offensive to conservative Catholics ...striking them as pseudo-Masonry in Catholic garb."

Are you also opposed to the Knights of Malta?  Why no comment by Mr. Kauffman about them?

So because the Knights started a youth group, and the Masons happen to also have a youth group there is automatic “guilt by association”?  Let's see … the Masonic association of the Shriners establish hospitals for the underprivileged.  Does this mean that the Missionary Sisters of the Sacred Heart (St. Francis Xavier Cabrini), the Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul (St. Elizabeth Ann Seton) and the Sisters of Providence are all Masonic sympathizers?  It gets worse of course, because Mother Seton, after her conversion to the Catholic Church, was confirmed by Bishop John Carroll of Baltimore in 1806.  By your logic she undoubtedly was “infused with the 'americanism' heresy”, given some of  the calamities spread about Bishop Carroll.

The citation of the Walsh article from The Angelus in the first paragraph “informs” us:
Quote:Christopher Kauffman wrote tellingly that "Because Keane (Bishop of Cheyenne, WY) was a Minnesota priest consecrated bishop by Archbishop John Ireland, and was `Americanist' in spirit …

So, being consecrated by Archbishop Ireland makes one “ Americanist in spirit”?  This is pretty rich as Archbishop Lefebvre was both ordained (1929) and consecrated (1947) by Achille Cardinal Lienart, Bishop of Lille in France.  It is widely reported that Cardinal Lienart was a Mason … you do the math here.

I would also ask that people consider that the Supreme Pontiff who was most vigorous in articulating the dangers of “Americanism”, Pope Leo XIII, ALSO gave his full approbation to the Knights of Columbus, as I documented with a link in my previous post.
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