Mother Angelica calls No Salatation Outside Church Heresy
#11
Doesn't sound like it's anything to burn her at the stake for . . .
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#12
(01-20-2013, 08:03 AM)Tim Wrote: I believe she is stating the obvious in terms everyone can understand. There is BOD, and BOB, and invincible ignorance, and these allow those that appear to be outside of the Church in very specific situations to be saved. But, at the moment of judgement, either you are become Catholic or you are not, and if not there is no salvation. I didn't see this episode currently but I seem to remember it, so I'm not positive this is what she meant. I have a hard time seeing her as a heretic, unlike others, especially when I saw her call out Cardinal Mahoney teaching heresy on the Eucharist. She's a lot wily loud mouthed Italo American, but I don't think she is a modernist heretic.

tim

Are you implying conversion after death?
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#13
(01-20-2013, 02:42 PM)JMartyr Wrote: She did say that everyone is judged according to the light that they are given. Kind of vague, for sure.
Jesus said as much in a different way, "Those to whom much has been given, much will be required."
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#14
(01-21-2013, 04:06 AM)TS Aquinas Wrote:
(01-20-2013, 08:03 AM)Tim Wrote: I believe she is stating the obvious in terms everyone can understand. There is BOD, and BOB, and invincible ignorance, and these allow those that appear to be outside of the Church in very specific situations to be saved. But, at the moment of judgement, either you are become Catholic or you are not, and if not there is no salvation. I didn't see this episode currently but I seem to remember it, so I'm not positive this is what she meant. I have a hard time seeing her as a heretic, unlike others, especially when I saw her call out Cardinal Mahoney teaching heresy on the Eucharist. She's a lot wily loud mouthed Italo American, but I don't think she is a modernist heretic.

tim

Are you implying conversion after death?
I took it as at the moment of death you better be Catholic one way or the other.
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#15
(01-21-2013, 05:37 AM)JMartyr Wrote:
(01-21-2013, 04:06 AM)TS Aquinas Wrote:
(01-20-2013, 08:03 AM)Tim Wrote: I believe she is stating the obvious in terms everyone can understand. There is BOD, and BOB, and invincible ignorance, and these allow those that appear to be outside of the Church in very specific situations to be saved. But, at the moment of judgement, either you are become Catholic or you are not, and if not there is no salvation. I didn't see this episode currently but I seem to remember it, so I'm not positive this is what she meant. I have a hard time seeing her as a heretic, unlike others, especially when I saw her call out Cardinal Mahoney teaching heresy on the Eucharist. She's a lot wily loud mouthed Italo American, but I don't think she is a modernist heretic.

tim

Are you implying conversion after death?
I took it as at the moment of death you better be Catholic one way or the other.

Yep, at the moment of death, that's what I mean, but I allow for God to do what He will in that space. For instance a boy or girl seven years old that is baptized in the Trinitarian form but is a Lutheran, and dies having committed only few venial sins, in this case God it would seem to me, that He has a way to allow them to become Catholic. How that works is His business and is way over my pay grade.

tim
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#16
(01-21-2013, 08:48 AM)Tim Wrote:
(01-21-2013, 05:37 AM)JMartyr Wrote:
(01-21-2013, 04:06 AM)TS Aquinas Wrote:
(01-20-2013, 08:03 AM)Tim Wrote: I believe she is stating the obvious in terms everyone can understand. There is BOD, and BOB, and invincible ignorance, and these allow those that appear to be outside of the Church in very specific situations to be saved. But, at the moment of judgement, either you are become Catholic or you are not, and if not there is no salvation. I didn't see this episode currently but I seem to remember it, so I'm not positive this is what she meant. I have a hard time seeing her as a heretic, unlike others, especially when I saw her call out Cardinal Mahoney teaching heresy on the Eucharist. She's a lot wily loud mouthed Italo American, but I don't think she is a modernist heretic.

tim

Are you implying conversion after death?
I took it as at the moment of death you better be Catholic one way or the other.

Yep, at the moment of death, that's what I mean, but I allow for God to do what He will in that space. For instance a boy or girl seven years old that is baptized in the Trinitarian form but is a Lutheran, and dies having committed only few venial sins, in this case God it would seem to me, that He has a way to allow them to become Catholic. How that works is His business and is way over my pay grade.

tim

You are right: That is NOT our business, but only that of God.
We have to do all what the RCC teaches since 2 millenaries in order to have the hope that God will save us, at least: To be baptized in the catholic Faith and repent sincerely before our death of all the sins we couldn't avoid making during our life.
Now if God wants to welcome in Heavens even the prots, muslims, atheists, that's NOT our business.
The chuch orders us to cling to EENS. Saying that everybody will be saved is to betray Jesus who never said so and to bring a help to the Church's Ennemy in encouraging our non-catholic brothers to not convert and stay in the error, putting their souls at stake.
We, true catholics should be afraid enough and worried of not being saved, so that not to be worrying about the eternal fate of the non-catholics.
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#17
And, just a bit more Maso. If we practice our Faith out there where all the infidels are, we set an example which draws them to Christ.  One time all the machinists were in my office complaining about mgmt. I was tired and they were getting under my skin, and they afforded me an opening and I riffed on the last things being the things they should be worried about. Case closed ! Not quite, all of them one by one returned privately and shared how I had put it in perspective. I couldn't believe it for one day I was close to being a saint in their eyes. Didn't last.

tim
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#18
(01-20-2013, 07:21 AM)JMartyr Wrote: i just saw this episode too. From what I remember, she said that it was a heresy to say that only Catholics go to heaven. Thenn she said there wasn't enough time to really get into the teaching as the show was about to end. As I first heard it, bells went off. But then when I took a step back and looked up a few things in Monsignor Joseph Fenton's book explaining salvation, it made more sense what she was saying. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt.

I would, too. My 1941 edition of the Baltimore Catechism has a page entitled "What Catholics Do Not Believe" that mostly states Protestant lies about the Church but also includes the phrase "all non-Catholics go to Hell."

EENS is a little more complex than it sounds at face value, thank the Dear Lord.
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#19
(01-21-2013, 10:48 AM)Tim Wrote: And, just a bit more Maso. If we practice our Faith out there where all the infidels are, we set an example which draws them to Christ.  One time all the machinists were in my office complaining about mgmt. I was tired and they were getting under my skin, and they afforded me an opening and I riffed on the last things being the things they should be worried about. Case closed ! Not quite, all of them one by one returned privately and shared how I had put it in perspective. I couldn't believe it for one day I was close to being a saint in their eyes. Didn't last.

tim

I love your stories, Tim, I wish I had the guts to share my faith more at work more often.

Your way of putting the Gospel into action is commendable.
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#20
(01-21-2013, 01:01 PM)Richard C Wrote:
(01-21-2013, 10:48 AM)Tim Wrote: And, just a bit more Maso. If we practice our Faith out there where all the infidels are, we set an example which draws them to Christ.  One time all the machinists were in my office complaining about mgmt. I was tired and they were getting under my skin, and they afforded me an opening and I riffed on the last things being the things they should be worried about. Case closed ! Not quite, all of them one by one returned privately and shared how I had put it in perspective. I couldn't believe it for one day I was close to being a saint in their eyes. Didn't last.

tim

I love your stories, Tim, I wish I had the guts to share my faith more at work more often.

Your way of putting the Gospel into action is commendable.

I'll tell you the straight skinny. I wasn't always this way, I was far from the faith. But as I came back I realized using the corny directness, and odd ball way I am, I could say stuff others would get smashed for saying, so off I went and each time I pushed it farther I found I'd get away with it.

tim
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