Mother Angelica calls No Salatation Outside Church Heresy
Quote: I want to agree with you, before though has any authority,opinions of theologians included, explained it this way as well

Happy to oblige:

St. Thomas Wrote:However, in the time of grace, everybody, the leaders and the ordinary people, have to have explicit faith in the Trinity and in the Redeemer. However, only the leaders, and not the ordinary people, are bound to believe explicitly all the matters of faith concerning the Trinity and the Redeemer. The ordinary people must, however, believe explicitly the general articles, such as that God is triune, that the Son of God was made flesh, died, and rose from the dead, and other like matters which the Church commemorates in her feasts.

Quote: If a person dies before repenting, believing and being baptized, what are we to think?

Short answer, we are to think nothing.  God, for His secret purpose saves who He will save, and leaves others in their natural fallen state.

1.  ALL men are damned.  We are a fallen race.  We in fact would be demons if Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, but he was thrown out before he got the chance.  Out of ALL of us, NONE of us can deserve the beatific vision.

2.  God saves who He wants to.  This is an act of Mercy.  There are no obligations on God from us.

3.  We can have strong hope in the existence of Limbo.

4.  Jesus is Mercy, Faith in Jesus is Justice.
For what it is worth, St. Thomas does speak of the possibility of pre-Incarnation pagans, in addition to Jews, having "implicit faith" in Christ:
ST II-II Q.2 A.7 ad.3 Wrote:Reply to Objection 3. Many of the gentiles received revelations of Christ, as is clear from their predictions. Thus we read (Job 19:25): "I know that my Redeemer liveth." The Sibyl too foretold certain things about Christ, as Augustine states (Contra Faust. xiii, 15). Moreover, we read in the history of the Romans, that at the time of Constantine Augustus and his mother Irene a tomb was discovered, wherein lay a man on whose breast was a golden plate with the inscription: "Christ shall be born of a virgin, and in Him, I believe. O sun, during the lifetime of Irene and Constantine, thou shalt see me again" [Cf. Baron, Annal., A.D. 780. If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation, they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth, as stated in Job 35:11: "Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth."
True, he was discussing the times before Christ.  If you read my quote, the first thing he does is distinguish he is talking about the time of Grace, which is after the death and resurrection of Jesus.  At which point, certain things had to be believed explicitly, which then implied other beliefs, i.e. implicit faith.  But the bare minimum was listed for explicit faith.
(01-26-2013, 05:53 PM)SouthpawLink Wrote: Doce Me,
Didn't you make a thread about explicit and implicit faith?

For my part, I adhere to the necessity of explicit faith (in the Holy Trinity and in the Incarnation of the Son of God), as it is, at the very least, the more probable/common opinion (insofar as I can tell).

No, I participated in one (or more) but didn't create one (.. I'm not quite sure!).

From all the Church and theologian writings I've seen on fisheaters, the safest opinion seems to be that explicit faith is needed for salvation.  But I'm not sure about the state of a man during the entirety of his life - is one without explicit faith always necessarily in the state of mortal sin? 
"Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore" Wrote:7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

He says that eternal life may be obtained by divine light and grace even by those living according to the natural law but with (ordinarily) invincible ignorance. It seems to me that explicit knowledge must come through that light and grace, whether it acts through ordinary means (by a missionary who comes at last) or by extraordinary enlightenment.  But God is pleased by those "ready to obey God" and not "guilty of deliberate sin".  It is hard for me that such men would be living all through their lives, even before their enlightenment,  in the constant state of mortal sin.

If a man is not in the state of mortal sin, doesn't he have (some level of) supernatural (infused) faith, even if it is not yet explicit?  Even if this is true, explicit faith would still be needed before death.
Quote:This is a sad misunderstanding of the term.  Instead of "implicit", I suggest substituting the term "implied" to make things more clear.

Okay -- substitute the word implied. I'm not sure how that helps, for someone relying on their natural reason CAN have an implied faith in Triune God, assuming they willed to worship God as He actually is, but didn't know His nature was in three persons. This is no different than your example of a Catholic who misses a few questions on the Catechism test -- we are inferring things based on their habitual will and good faith efforts.

Quote:So for example there is ZERO implied in a pagan's natural reason that he has Faith in Jesus, without which Faith no man was EVER justified.  What will lead to Faith is cooperation with GRACE.

See my comment above -- there can be a good bit inferred in a person acting in good faith based on their natural reason. Fr. Harrison's speculation is that a consequence of habitual will acting on natural reason may lead to explicit faith in Christ through a special grace of infused knowledge. I don't see how this is any different than the thesis that this happens in the external forum (i.e., those who say an angel is sent to teach those of good faith about Christ who were not accessible to men).

In fact the very link you provided quoting St. Thomas, he says the same thing:

Quote:1. Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that on his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).

2. Although it is not within our power to know matters of faith by ourselves alone, still, if we do what we can, that is, follow the guidance of natural reason, God will not withhold from us that which we need.
Quote: Okay -- substitute the word implied. I'm not sure how that helps, for someone relying on their natural reason CAN have an implied faith in Triune God,

Except St. Thomas says it is a requirement to have explicit Faith in the Triune God, as well as the Incarnation.  We also have the teachings of Trent and Vatican I on the subject.

Then there is the case of moslems and jews who explicitly reject the Trinity.  Nothing implied there, we know they are damned (if they die in that state).

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