When to start spanking?
#41
(02-17-2013, 09:29 PM)loggats Wrote: If there must be a rule I do think it should be "never spank". If there are exceptions to that rule, then that might have to be worked out. But I don't think that parents should have the idea that striking their kids is justifiable behaviour, across the board.
What do you mean by "across the board"? At any age?
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#42
I very much agree with the quote from Fr. Ripperger.

The idea is to start early, but obviously not in a severe manner, I've never had to give anything but a light spanking for my 11 month old (at the time) for her to know not to do something. Example being, she liked to pull on her sisters hair to get attention. It didn't take many spankings for her to figure out that was wrong and she has not done it since.
I notice from starting early my daughter listens more when I say no. With my first child I began late with spanking (Some time after 18 months) and she is far more difficult and does not listen well when I tell her not to do something, she is coming around, but slowly.

I've observed large families for a few years going from one parish to another, the families that have the idea to spank at a young age, they're children are so well behaved! I went out of my way to ask for their advice and that is one of the first things that come up is early discipline.
At the same time I've noticed a few families that do not spank, and one in particular, all of the children are out of control and very bad mannered. Now I'm not saying that there are not exceptions, but I believe that has more to do with temperament.

Spanking should not last very long either, if the child is past say, the age of 8 and your still spanking on a regular basis.. I think its safe to say you may be doing something wrong. Spanking should never go beyond 12 years of age. I saw this growing up and it never had good results.
Very important too is not spanking in anger, if your child is behaving bad, you don't wait till it ticks you off to do something about.

I think a lot of people who have a negative opinion about spanking have so because of experience, I'm not sure there was ever a good example in my life of justifiable discipline, most of the parents I grew up around had bad tempers and were very detached from their children. It wasn't until I began to spend time with large traditional families that I got a clearer understanding.

Well that's my thoughts on the subject. Sticking tongue out at you
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#43
(02-16-2013, 07:43 PM)Geremia Wrote:
(02-16-2013, 04:19 PM)Apollonia Wrote: 2 weeks is a long time for a kid. It was definitely too long for me to be cleaning up pee from the carpet and sofa.
Did anyone else have this problem? I think I did 2 weeks or so spanking then 2 weeks of time outs. It was the worst month!
By the time they're 2½, they should've been spanked for months by now, at least, if not over a year.

Fr. Chad Ripperger, PhD in psychology and the FSSP's "star theologian," in his excellent Introduction to the Science of Mental Health, which reassess modern psychology in the light of Thomist psychology and anthropology (see his 3 part video presentation on it), says (p. 709-10):
Fr. Chad Ripperger, FSSP, PhD Wrote:…Infants, from the age of birth to two years old, generally cannot make judgments. Therefore, how they are trained is based upon the functions in which the cogitative power can engage. Before the age of about one year of age, the cogitative power is not developed enough to begin the process which is used from about one to two years of age, viz. training by pleasure and pain.⁵⁴⁵ The cogitative power, at this stage, assesses things based upon pleasure and pain and so that is how the child must be trained. The pleasure affirms the cogitative power in its assessment, thereby training⁵⁴⁶ the cogitative power to assess positively in those matters pertaining to pleasure. The pain trains the cogitative power to assess something negatively which should be assessed negatively.⁵⁴⁷ Teaching consists largely in preparing the phantasms for the student, i.e. the one who is learning. In the case of infants, the phantasms must be prepared most concretely, i.e. sensorially with a stress on the sense of touch.
     From the ages of about two to four, the child is progressively able to make associations but the training by reward (pleasure) and punishment (pain) is the foundation for training of the child's conduct. However, the verbal dimension is able to dominate more during this stage since linguistic development rapidly advances. Until the child reaches the age of between four and six, when he is able to make basic moral judgments, reasoning with the child is fruitless because the child cannot understand the abstract notions sufficiently well to be able to understand and make the connections between what he is being told and what he is to do. During this stage, teaching can take on a more verbal approach but tactile teaching is still necessary. Visual abilities also increase during this stage, which is why visual training, such as block shapes and the like, can be used to train the child. Color discrimination, while done by the cogitative power in the infant stage, is grasped more by the child at this stage. Therefore, education at this stage should include a more sensory-based approach.

⁵⁴⁵A normal parent will begin to detect when the child is able to make the association of pain with avoidance. [How have you detected this in your child?] For some children, they may be able to make these associations as early as nine or ten months, other children may take up to a year. [So spanking should begin at 1 yr, at the latest.]
⁵⁴⁶Since the child cannot engage in the voluntary, habits cannot be developed at this stage. it is analogous to training an animal. [Someone mentioned that on this thread.]
⁵⁴⁷Two observations are in order. The first is that moral, the punishment (pain) that is inflicted must always be ordered toward the child's physical, psychological, moral and spiritual well-being. Excessive punishments (abuse) or punishments which are not rooted in reason are immoral since they can cause harm to the child. The second is that rightly ordered punishments are actually necessary for the cogitative power's proper development. [Tell this to modern man who denies original sin and its effects!] If the cogitative power is not trained in this way, the child can be affected for life, if that kind of training persists, because the child will not grasp the painful or negative aspects of reality properly and thereby will end up irresponsible in his conduct, because he will not grasp the painful realities of immoral conduct. [Viz., the child will live in la-la land.] Moreover, God himself teaches us through Scripture that parents must discipline their child so that he does not end up in hell; see Proverbs 23:13-14 ["Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell."]. As much as modern psychology might like to think that we should never punish a child, reality and God tell us otherwise.
He goes on discussing further stages.

Fr. Ripperger does not have a PhD in pyschology. He does not have any degree in psychology. He has a PhD in Thomistic philosophy from the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross. Introduction to the Science of Mental Health is his attempt to ground practical psychology in the Thomistic philosophy of human nature (largely drawn from his philosophy of man in the second and third parts of the Summa). Many of Aquinas' anthropological theories do apply well to practical psychology (especially in virtue acquisition and the use of the senses in the learning process), but some do not. Aquinas has a 13th century grasp of biology. His philosophy of femininity (drawing in part from his impoverished biology) is not as robust as, say, that of St. Edith Stein (Thomist and Phenomenologist) in her Essays on Woman. Fr. Ripperger tends (in his lectures etc.) to speak about St. Thomas's views is if they are not only all factual but all doctrinal. He also tends to extend the notion of infallibility to whatever a decent amount of Catholics believed traditionally (and sometimes "traditionally" is selective), for e.g. he claims that the doctrine of limbo is an infallible teaching of the Church according to the ordinary magisterium. 

 On the topic of spanking, Fr. Rippergers views are similar: he abstracts Aquinas' 13th century biology/psychology including his views on corporal punishment and then basically says that if you're not spanking you're not a good parent. This is false. All of the passages you cite from the old testament can be interpreted exegetically without entailing spanking. Thy rod and thy staff they COMFORT me, meaning discipline guides me (does not imply hitting) http://www.dannyzacharias.net/blog/2015/...r-children

Dr. Gregory Popak (counselor) does not recommend spanking as a disciplinary method http://www.churchesfornon-violence.org/T...%20Can.pdf

Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff (UT Austin) has done a meta analysis over 50 years and concludes spanking is not advisable https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/...cdep.12038

Gershoff, Grogan-Kaylor (UMich) and others agree https://reader.elsevier.com/reader/sd/pi...3473CE6BD6 

There is no evidence that spanking enhances children's development or mental health or produces longterm desirable behavior. I'm not arguing for an absolute ban, but I think it should be treated like capital punishment, I do it only as a last resort perhaps to stop a kid from running into the street etc.
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