JFK, abortion, and the usual suspects
#41
In Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae Pope Leo XIII seems to be warning Cardinal Gibbons (who wrote the Baltimore Catechism) against watering down the faith in a misguided attempt to attract converts.
Quote:It is known to you, beloved son, that the biography of Isaac Thomas Hecker, especially through the action of those who under took to translate or interpret it in a foreign language, has excited not a little controversy, on account of certain opinions brought forward concerning the way of leading Christian life.

We, therefore, on account of our apostolic office, having to guard the integrity of the faith and the security of the faithful, are desirous of writing to you more at length concerning this whole matter.

The underlying principle of these new opinions is that, in order to more easily attract those who differ from her, the Church should shape her teachings more in accord with the spirit of the age and relax some of her ancient severity and make some concessions to new opinions. Many think that these concessions should be made not only in regard to ways of living, but even in regard to doctrines which belong to the deposit of the faith. They contend that it would be opportune, in order to gain those who differ from us, to omit certain points of her teaching which are of lesser importance, and to tone down the meaning which the Church has always attached to them.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm

It seems to me that the idea of 'personal responsibility' before God for our actions, rather than keeping the Catholic faith in its entirety, is what the issue of JFK's speech and the proaborts have in common.  The famous excuse that those who are Catholics in name only use to be proabort is 'I am personally opposed to abortion, but God forbid that I impose my beliefs on anyone else.'   

I don't believe that JFK's personal sins were widely known in his time.  It's my understanding that these things were kept very quiet.  And as others have said, I don't think he's to blame for simply following along what his religious authorities were saying and doing at the time.  If people here are more critical of Pope John Paul II than of the Kennedys it might be because we expect the pope to know better.  He should know that his example will be followed, even by non-Catholics. 
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#42
First I never voted for a Kennedy nor am I Camelot fan. "Nuff !

The best apologist for the abortion Catholics was Mario Cuomo, not Kennedy. Mario was a brilliant man and very educated, enough to give those heretical priests and theologians a run for their money. Mario used Thomas Aquinas as the basis for his argument, as Aquinas with imperfect knowledge believed ensoulment occured after some months from conception. This is the basis for their stand. I believe life starts at conception. period.

tim

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#43
Quote:I showed you he was dead then and nowhere does it say he was there.

You act like everyone doesn't know when JFK was shot.  It's so weird. 

I guess this is just what it's like to be on trad board again.  All the basic suppositions are different. 

I suppose, since we're majoring in minors here, if I had simply titled my thread "Ted Kennedy, abortion, and the usual suspects" you would have overlooked it.  I invoked John since IMO his campaign in 1960 set the stage for all of this.  Instead of dealing with that, you've been carrying on about ghettos, bluebloods, Sanger, and your opinion that Ted really "changed his mind" in 1974.  It's a sort of political/cultural twighlight zone in here. 

It's as weird as the time Jack had to send the secretary of state to the Med to fetch Jackie off of Aristotle Onassis' yacht and bring her home to the White House...

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#44
I hope you've finished.

tim
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#45
I've not even begun to defame the Kennedys...

No, actually, I don't care that much.  I saw an article about a piece of modern Catholic history I hadn't known before, posted it, and got all sorts of weird un-Catholic (IMO) flak about it.  Just another day on the internet.
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#46
Is there anything of value in my last post in this thread, Burdensome1?
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#47
First thread in a while that made me laugh out loud. Maybe I'm just a bit slaphappy from working all day, I don't  know. Anyhoo, my observations/comments...

*Ayep, the Kennedy's were schmucks. That's news?

*Ayep, that JFK speech 'bout not letting his bein' catholic affect how he governs was bad and the mentality is certainly shared by today's pro-abort catholic politicians. Stretch to say JFK could have been excommunicated for it though. Pro-abort politicians can and should be excommunicated (and should have been way back when it all started - gonna be hard now after how many decades of letting em off the hook? If only Cardinal Burke would get the white hat!).

*Tim isn't a Kennedy lover Burdensome - you're coming off as kind of kooky seeing Kennedy lovers where there are none.

*Tim is from the Catholic ghetto.

*Burdensome really, really, really don't like the Kennedys.

*It's ridiculous to say Ted Kennedy "used to be pro-life until such and such a date." He is a politician....follow me? Come on guys.

*St.Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas taught that legalized prostitution was a good thing. Wait...what?!?! Darn libertarian must have snuck in here somewhere.
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#48
Quote:Is there anything of value in my last post in this thread, Burdensome1?

Per,

Since we do now know all about JFK's personal life, I'm just looking at things from this point of view, in 2013.  What I am saying in this thread is really very common stuff in the outside world, JFK being closely associated with Americanism and the divorce of "Catholic" politicians from Catholic moral teaching.  I'm not having original thoughts....but according to Tim, they are the thoughts of Trotskyite Zionists.  I was not aware that I was either a Trotskyite or a Zionist, but I'm not from the ghetto, so I may not be reliable on that issue. 

You can form your own opinion about who is right, and who is kooky. 
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#49
(02-17-2013, 02:28 AM)Burdensome1 Wrote:
Quote:Is there anything of value in my last post in this thread, Burdensome1?

Per,

Since we do now know all about JFK's personal life, I'm just looking at things from this point of view, in 2013.  What I am saying in this thread is really very common stuff in the outside world, JFK being closely associated with Americanism and the divorce of "Catholic" politicians from Catholic moral teaching.  I'm not having original thoughts....but according to Tim, they are the thoughts of Trotskyite Zionists.  I was not aware that I was either a Trotskyite or a Zionist, but I'm not from the ghetto, so I may not be reliable on that issue. 

You can form your own opinion about who is right, and who is kooky.  I'm out. 

Tim From the Catholic Ghetto can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was just saying Americanism didn't originate with the Kennedys and that there are bigger fish to fry than the Kennedys.

I agree with you btw that Kennedys speech separating his faith from his position as POTUS is and was damnable and is the position taken by todays pro-abort politicians.

I disagree with you that JFK has more to do with our problems than JP2. Strongly disagree.

Peace,

Dustinsdad (Formerly Of the Catholic Suburbs, Currently In the Traditional Catholic Ghetto...I think)
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#50
Quote:I agree with you btw that Kennedys speech separating his faith from his position as POTUS is and was damnable and is the position taken by todays pro-abort politicians.

Then apparently you and I are both nuts.  Talk to Tim.  He's from the ghetto, he'll straighten you out. 

Quote:I disagree with you that JFK has more to do with our problems than JP2. Strongly disagree.

I don't see JPII as a model of disobedience to Catholic moral teaching, and I don't pin VII or Paul VI's missal on him (seems obvious).  Our problems in the USA seem to stem from disobedient misuse of the council, disobedience to Church moral teaching, and the NO missal. 

So, I see our American models of disobedience as more of a problem than a Pope who jetted around dabbling in politics and occasionally praying with pagans.  Americans don't pray with pagans all that much.  They do act like Kennedys all the d*mn time.
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