Consecrate Russia!
#51
(02-17-2013, 11:36 AM)DrBombay Wrote: If God doesn't do what we think he should do, that means he hasn't fulfilled his promises.  That's a very Catholic philosophy (if one is an Evangelical prod Catholic that is).


Strawman.

Quote:With this attitude it is hardly surprising that one of the leading lights of the Fatima tinfoil hat brigade on this forum has already announced he intends to leave the Church when a dead pope is canonized.

Association fallacy.
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#52
(02-17-2013, 01:08 PM)mikemac Wrote: "We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete."
Pope Benedict on May 13, 2010
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...ma_en.html

I doubt Pope Benedict was referring to the future conversion of Russia and the future period of peace, seeing it was 26 years after JP II consecrated the world in 1984 when Pope Benedict said the above.  You know, seeing the world has not seen a period of peace and still less than 1% of Russia is Catholic.  So let's try to figure this time line out.  Less than 1% of Russia has converted in the 29 years since 1984.  So at that rate it will take over 2900 years for Russia  to convert (29 years x 100 % = 2900 years).  Bombay besides slandering good priests and the good people in this forum why don't you try to explain the two very obvious reasons why people do not think the consecration of the world in 1984 fulfilled Heaven's request given to us by Our Lady of Fatima?

She never promised Russia would convert to the Catholic faith.  Never. Not one time.  Never.  Also, peace does not mean that not one shot will be fired in anger on the entire earth.  That's a ludicrous reading, considering men still have free will.  So unless you're claiming the consecration is a magical incantation that thwarts man's free will, there will always be violence until the second coming.  The peace Our Lord gives us far surpasses temporal concerns.  His kingdom is not of this world, in case you didn't know that.  The Jews thought their Messiah would bring earthly glory to them, but that's because they were blind and perfidious. 

Oh, and I haven't yet "slandered" a "good" priest.  What I've done is tell the truth about a bad priest, a disobedient priest, a suspended a divinis priest.  But as ever, people do not wish to hear the truth.  There can be accusations that the saintly seer of Fatima, Princes of the Church and the Vicar of Christ are lying, but somehow tender sensibilities are offended when the truth about a suspended priest is pointed out.  They crucified the Truth 2000 years ago and his followers, as He reminded them, should hardly expect to be treated better.  Meh.
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#53
(02-17-2013, 01:16 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote:
(02-17-2013, 11:36 AM)DrBombay Wrote: If God doesn't do what we think he should do, that means he hasn't fulfilled his promises.  That's a very Catholic philosophy (if one is an Evangelical prod Catholic that is).


Strawman.

Argument from ignorance.

(02-17-2013, 01:16 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote:
Quote:With this attitude it is hardly surprising that one of the leading lights of the Fatima tinfoil hat brigade on this forum has already announced he intends to leave the Church when a dead pope is canonized.

Association fallacy.

Special pleading.

:tiphat:
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#54
Here's an interesting read, for those who have eyes to see:

http://fatimaconsecration.org/

History of the Consecration and Related Events Wrote:March 25, 1984 - Pope John Paul II, “united with all the pastors of the Church in a particular bond whereby we constitute a body and a college,” consecrates “the whole world, especially the peoples for which by reason of their situation you have particular love and solicitude.” Both the Pope and Sr. Lucia initially seemed uncertain that the consecration has been fulfilled, but shortly thereafter Sr. Lucia tells the papal nuncio to Portugal that the Consecration is fulfilled.
May 13, 1984 - One of the largest crowds in Fatima history gathers at the shrine to pray the Rosary for peace.
May 13, 1984 - An explosion at the Soviets’ Severomorsk Naval Base destroys two-thirds of all the missiles stockpiled for the Soviets’ Northern Fleet. The blast also destroys workshops needed to maintain the missiles as well as hundreds of scientists and technicians. Western military experts called it the worst naval disaster the Soviet Navy has suffered since WWII.
December 1984 - Soviet Defense Minister, mastermind of the  invasion plans for Western Europe, suddenly and mysteriously dies.
March 10, 1985 - Soviet Chairman Konstantin Chernenko dies
March 11, 1985 - Soviet Chairman Mikhail Gorbachev elected
April 26, 1986 - Chernobyl nuclear reactor accident
May 12, 1988 - An explosion wrecked the only factory that made the rocket motors for the Soviets’ deadly SS 24 long-range missiles, which carry ten nuclear bombs each.
August 29, 1989 - Sr. Lucia affirms in correspondence that the consecration “has been accomplished” and that “God will keep His word.”
November 9, 1989 - Fall of the Berlin Wall
Nov-Dec 1989 - Peaceful revolutions in Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria and Albania
1990 - East and West Germany are unified
December 25, 1991 - Dissolution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

Huh.  But it's all a coincidence, I'm sure.  Yessir, just like the atheists say.  :eyeroll:
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#55
(02-17-2013, 02:27 PM)DrBombay Wrote:
(02-17-2013, 01:08 PM)mikemac Wrote: "We would be mistaken to think that Fatima's prophetic mission is complete."
Pope Benedict on May 13, 2010
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedi...ma_en.html

I doubt Pope Benedict was referring to the future conversion of Russia and the future period of peace, seeing it was 26 years after JP II consecrated the world in 1984 when Pope Benedict said the above.  You know, seeing the world has not seen a period of peace and still less than 1% of Russia is Catholic.  So let's try to figure this time line out.  Less than 1% of Russia has converted in the 29 years since 1984.  So at that rate it will take over 2900 years for Russia  to convert (29 years x 100 % = 2900 years).  Bombay besides slandering good priests and the good people in this forum why don't you try to explain the two very obvious reasons why people do not think the consecration of the world in 1984 fulfilled Heaven's request given to us by Our Lady of Fatima?

She never promised Russia would convert to the Catholic faith.  Never. Not one time.  Never.  Also, peace does not mean that not one shot will be fired in anger on the entire earth.  That's a ludicrous reading, considering men still have free will.  So unless you're claiming the consecration is a magical incantation that thwarts man's free will, there will always be violence until the second coming.  The peace Our Lord gives us far surpasses temporal concerns.  His kingdom is not of this world, in case you didn't know that.  The Jews thought their Messiah would bring earthly glory to them, but that's because they were blind and perfidious. 

Oh, and I haven't yet "slandered" a "good" priest.  What I've done is tell the truth about a bad priest, a disobedient priest, a suspended a divinis priest.  But as ever, people do not wish to hear the truth.  There can be accusations that the saintly seer of Fatima, Princes of the Church and the Vicar of Christ are lying, but somehow tender sensibilities are offended when the truth about a suspended priest is pointed out.  They crucified the Truth 2000 years ago and his followers, as He reminded them, should hardly expect to be treated better.  Meh.

Bombay a proper consecration is not just for Catholics.  It is for the millions of souls that will perish because they are outside of the Church.  Mary wants to save souls.  That's the whole idea of the conversion of Russia.

I guess Our Lady must have been meaning that the people of Russia would convert to Islam or a schismatic sect, eh Bombay?

I mean, for Heaven's sake, why would anyone think that Our Lady meant conversion to the Catholic Faith?  :eyeroll:

This is what the CIA Factbook says about the religion of the people of Russia.
"Russian Orthodox 15-20%, Muslim 10-15%, other Christian 2% (2006 est.)
note: estimates are of practicing worshipers; Russia has large populations of non-practicing believers and non-believers, a legacy of over seven decades of Soviet rule"  Note the "other Christian 2%" is not just Catholics, Catholics still make up less than 1 %.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications...os/rs.html

Peace also does not mean continual hot spots around the world since 1984, like the ongoing Palestinian/Israeli conflict, East Timor, Bosnia, Somalia, New York on 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, the so called Arab Spring countries, threats from North Korea or the threat of World War III with super powers taking sides either for or against Syria and Iran.  Nice period of peace you claim the world has been granted Bombay.  :eyeroll:

Yes you are slandering a good priest Bombay.  Father Gruner has been incardinated as a priest in good standing in the Archdiocese of Hyderabad.  On Nov. 4, 1995 the Archbishop of Hyderabad said "evil forces have conspired to destroy your [Father Gruner’s] work of love" and that "bureaucratic forces cannot stifle God’s work."  The Archbishop of Hyderabad on March 10, 1999 also said "Having reviewed the documents … I am satisfied that my decree of 4 November 1995 incardinating Father Nicholas Gruner into the Archdiocese of Hyderabad is valid and effective ... After due discernment, I am convinced that I am acting correctly though I was partly misled by influential people. I strongly feel that the good work he is doing in spreading devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary should not be hampered … through undue canonical or juridical pressures. May Jesus Christ be praised!"

Bombay you are not just slandering Father Gruner, you are also slandering the Cardinal that is encouraging him, as well as the Archbishops, Bishops, the many Priests and the millions of lay people that support him.

Homosexual priests have been shuffled around with no penalty by enabling bishops and some bishops (like Law) have been rewarded for it.

Yet the Fatima priest that is just requesting what Heaven asked, a prayer that will take less than 10 minutes is attack the way he is.  It does not make sense at all.

Why not just try to do the Consecration properly this time?  Who is it going to hurt?

And no Bombay, you did not properly address the two very obvious questions.  Where's the period of peace?  Where's the conversion of Russia?
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#56
I did address them.  You are looking at a period of peace as the carnal Jews did, a purely materialistic view.  The peace Our Lord promises goes far beyond that.  And how about a conversion from an atheistic, militaristic superpower intent on annihilating nations? Or are you claiming that the changes in the former Soviet Union and the eastern bloc nations over the past 20 years has been an illusion or deception perpetrated by the communists? Perhaps it was also a fortunate happenstance that it all happened after the 1984 consecration? Yes, that explains it.
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#57
I think the evil in Russia today is present because the evil has spread. We did not heed Our Lady's words. Even if Russia was consecrated in 1984 like Bombay seems to think. It may have been to late. Also, as a previous post asked; How many Catholics today say the rosary as Our Lady asked? We have a lot to account for. It wouldn't hurt to have the consecration done even if Russia has spread her errors throughout the world. But we to must do our part. Pray, pray, pray! :pray: :pray2:
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#58
(02-17-2013, 04:04 PM)DrBombay Wrote: Or are you claiming that the changes in the former Soviet Union and the eastern bloc nations over the past 20 years has been an illusion or deception perpetrated by the communists?

The Soviet Union was split into many different nations for the sole purpose of garnering more votes in the Olympic games.
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#59
(02-17-2013, 02:29 PM)DrBombay Wrote: Argument from ignorance.


Improper application of this informal fallacy. No one is stating you can't disprove the position so the position must be correct.

Quote:Special pleading.

What you presented was not a fact of the position nor a consequence of it, just someone who holds the same position and has said he will do something of his own accord that has nothing to do with the consecration. Trying to use this as a factual rebuttal against the whole position based upon what one individual will do would be the fallacy of composition.
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#60
(02-17-2013, 05:10 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote:
(02-17-2013, 02:29 PM)DrBombay Wrote: Argument from ignorance.


Improper application of this informal fallacy. No one is stating you can't disprove the position so the position must be correct.

Quote:Special pleading.

What you presented was not a fact of the position nor a consequence of it, just someone who holds the same position and has said he will do something of his own accord that has nothing to do with the consecration. Trying to use this as a factual rebuttal against the whole position based upon what one individual will do would be the fallacy of composition.

Strawman.

:tiphat:
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