Catholics and homosexuality
#1
Recent rumours about the gay underground etc in the Church have touched a nerve for me, and I need to vent.

Personally, when I was young and discerning my vocation MOST of the (NO) priests I went to for advice made me feel very uncomfortable to say the least. They turned me off joining the priesthood because they seemed a little too interested in me, rather than my vocation, to put it mildly. They all told me to be a priest, though I openly said that I didn't have a clear vocation. There's a few stories, but one that should matter most I guess is the openly camp priest in charge of vocations for my archdiocese, at a time when there were rumours of a homo element among the seminarians, who was ready to sign me up on the spot in spite of my reservations, in a "oh don't worry about all that come and join us" kind of way. I won't go into details, but his whole manner and way of thinking was creepy, and I didn't go near him again. Another priest was feeling himself through his pockets when I was telling him about my discernment issues (which were mainly about having had sex with girls but feeling drawn to Christ, to be honest). Literally most of about 10 priests I went to at that time gave me the creeps, in a way I couldn't put my finger on but just felt was "too personal" or something.

A few years ago I met a trad bloke who had left the seminary for reasons he wouldn't talk about at first. It turns out (as I suspected) that he was victimised by the gay power lobby in the seminaries, who were the pets of several bishops. He told me that there was actual sex going on, and not only that but it was almost considered a part of a genuine seminary experience - exploring your sexuality/ identity etc. Hearing his stories made me grateful to God for saving a young idealistic me from entering a seminary.

I totally believe that there are a lot of homos in the clergy and that they play power games, promote each other etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they have power in the Vatican, as the rumours are suggesting.

I also think that homosexuality is one of the worst evils possible. I'm not surprised that "the world" celebrates it these days, but I can't for the life of me understand why Catholics (even trad ones) seem to think it's some kind of complex issue that needs sympathy and discussion etc. It's just plain awful. I've known a few people who got caught up in it and I've met a couple of the older predator types who suck young people into it, and I can't think of many things that do more damage to the soul. I don't know why pedophilia is considered the worst evil left on earth but homosexuality is something worthy of sympathy, let alone tolerance, let alone celebration.

It is anti-truth and those who are caught up in it redefine truth to avoid their consciences. Then they band together, and redefine truth to others, to bring new members into the club. I believe this has happened in the Western Church to such an extent that it's time to do something about it. The "spirit of V2" has opened up a can of worms in this area, and I hope that it's time for it to be called out and dealt with by a heroic Pope.

End of venting.
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#2
It's good that you have a strong sense of sin.  In this case, it is the sin of others.  The sins you identify are real and they are pernicious.

The cardinals are aware of this problem.  Now is the time to deal with it.  I agree with you.  Let's ask the Holy Ghost to help them.

But Lent is a time for repenting of one's own sins.  Perhaps that should be our focus until Easter.
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#3
Yes fair enough. Like I said, it just touched a nerve and unfortunately it has happened during Lent. Mods feel free to delete thread if it's going to cause scandal etc.
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#4
I think we can contemplate both. Lent is a time of fast and abstinence to fortify us each, but also all of together as the body of Christ. The Church during the season of Lent use this as the little Chapter (Capitulum) for Lauds;

Isa 58:1
Clama ne cesses quasi tuba exalta vocem tuam et annuntia pópulo meo scélera eórum et dómui Iacob peccáta eórum

Isa 58:1
Cry, cease not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their wicked doings, and the house of Jacob their sins.

And then at Vespers;

Joel 2:17
Inter vestibulum et altáre plorabunt sacerdótes, minístri Dómini, et dicent: parce, Dómine, parce pópulo tuo: et ne des hereditátem tuam in oppróbrium, ut dominentur eis natiónes.

Joel 2:17
Between the porch and the altar the priests the Lord's ministers shall weep, and shall say: Spare, O Lord, spare thy people: and give not thy inheritance to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them.

These point to both our personal repentance and also our corporate repentance.

Maybe we should renew our purpose to bring the Holy Ghost to act through us to cleanse the wounds caused by this festering disease in the Body of Christ.

tim
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#5

But we will never restore things if all the trads are run off. Some men out there with the fortitude to deal with the lavender mafia will have to grin and bear it long enough to get through seminary if we're ever going to have a Church in which the TLM, other traditional sacramental rites, and traditional teaching are the norm. That's how the lavender mafia situated themselves; the Commies infiltrated, they shut up long enough to get into "gatekeeper positions," and then they were able to control entire seminaries and dioceses. We have to do the same thing.

BTW, I don't see Lent as an excuse for not dealing with problems in the Church. Focusing on our own sins and also on problems that entail the sins of others aren't mutually exclusive things. I also don't see how this thread could possibly be "scandalous" unless it were to cause someone to become fed up with the general tone of things in the Church and leave. But folks around here are already aware of things. "Scandalous" doesn't mean "shocking."
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#6
(03-07-2013, 09:29 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: Focusing on our own sins and also on problems that entail the sins of others aren't mutually exclusive things.

They can be.
Quote:And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye?  Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye?  Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Matthew 7:3-5.

I knew someone in a Courage group who spent all his time talking about the sins of others and who seemed to forge an entire spirituality out of making reparation for them.  He never discussed his own failings and struggles in the group.  That's the kind of mentality I'm cautioning against.

Since we are part of the Mystical Body of Christ, working on our own sins will redound to the spiritual benefit even of those who commit much more serious sins.  And we will avoid the pitfall indicated to us by Our Lord.  Perhaps that is more important than holding forth on an Internet forum.

And with that, I am leaving Fish Eaters, because I just came to realize something very important for my own salvation and sanctification.
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#7
Quote:But we will never restore things if all the trads are run off. Some men out there with the fortitude to deal with the lavender mafia will have to grin and bear it long enough to get through seminary if we're ever going to have a Church in which the TLM, other traditional sacramental rites, and traditional teaching are the norm. That's how the lavender mafia situated themselves; the Commies infiltrated, they shut up long enough to get into "gatekeeper positions," and then they were able to control entire seminaries and dioceses. We have to do the same thing.

Yep.  That is entirely true.  We have many friends who have completed or are in seminary formation.  And we have a few who gave up along the way.  Your clear statement "grin and bear it" is the antithesis of modern psychological formation.  Even the "good" seminaries cannot help but fill their heads with psycho-babble, and sadly I cannot even exempt the trad seminaries on this one. 

We would be much better off if men were formed for about 2 years.  A smart one can obtain the intellectual formation in that time, and he's less likely to get screwed up in the process.  We can skip philosophy now, because the tradition connection between philosophy and theology is no longer made, removing the value of the philosophy in formation.  We can skip the idea that men need time to live in community, since they go solo after ordination and the community is scandalous and harmful anyway.  Homiletics is a joke (anyone surprised?) and management isn't taught anyway.     

Quote:BTW, I don't see Lent as an excuse for not dealing with problems in the Church. Focusing on our own sins and also on problems that entail the sins of others aren't mutually exclusive things. I also don't see how this thread could possibly be "scandalous" unless it were to cause someone to become fed up with the general tone of things in the Church and leave. But folks around here are already aware of things. "Scandalous" doesn't mean "shocking."

Dang, I'm starting to really like this place. 
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#8
The problem here is that these priests and the faithful in general no longer believe in sexual sin.
If these priests really believed in sin they would control themselves and work on overcoming their temptations.
This is the real problem.
I am sure men and women have been dealing with this problem for generations, it is only now that people have put a name on it and publicized it so much that those that are afflicted now seem to think they are unique and part of a victimized group that needs liberation.
This spirit has entered the Church, combined with a feel good theology and you have no more chastity and celibacy.
a house cleaning is in order and it needs to purge all sexual sins out of the clergy.
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#9
Catholics, even some trads, are following the contemporary Church's teaching regarding how to treat persons who say they are attracted to the same sex, which is the opposite of what the Church's teaching had been previously. The contemporary Church still believes homosexuality is disordered and the act a sin but has reserved a special place for it and now tiptoes around this particular sin and treats it with kid gloves so as not to offend anyone's sensibilities. The question that occurs to me is, why is the Church treating this sin with kid gloves and telling us we have to respect and treat with dignity anyone involved with this sin? What is so special about this temptation that it has to be respected and treated with dignity as compared to any other temptation to sin? After all, we're all tempted with sinful thoughts.

Fleeting, tempting thought isn't a sin and we should quickly banish the thought to the dustbin. Got it. So what are we to think of it  when someone indulges a particular temptation long enough, and often enough, to claim a group identity based on that temptation (identifying oneself as a homosexual, bisexual, transgender, ect.)? At that point, hasn't the fleeting temptation (thought) progressed into an act of embracing it by word (identifying oneself by word as homosexual, etc.)? And how does that square with what we say in the Confiteor, "I confess to Almighty God...that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word, and deed, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault..."

   
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#10
(03-07-2013, 09:50 AM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote: And with that, I am leaving Fish Eaters, because I just came to realize something very important for my own salvation and sanctification.

Whaaat?! You can't go - you posts are too edifying.  I command you to cease your exodus!
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