Too Much Talk, Not Enough WALK! Let's GO, Folks!
#11
We are required to know what we are expected to know about the Faith, based on the gifts given us by God and our vocation.

Of course this knowledge is not the source of our salvation (the heresy of Gnosticism), but it is connected to it. 

Of course knowledge of the Faith can never be separated from actually practicing the Faith (prayer, corporal and spiritual works of mercy, etc), the heresy of sola fide -- "Show me your faith without works.... and I will show you my faith by my works" as St James wrote.

But there are times when the ability to be "cold-hearted" about things (which comes very easily for me, being about as obvious an INTJ personality as they come) can be very useful.  For example, I recently served as MC at a Funeral Missa Cantata with final Absolution.  The young priest had never celebrated this liturgy before, and it was the first in our diocese in over two years.  So, it was very helpful for me to be totally emotionally disconnected so that there was at least one person focused strictly on following the rubrics and organizing the best possible worship to God for the intention of the poor soul.  So, did I not practice a corporal work of mercy in this situation, since I did so from the head, rather than from the heart?

I certainly admit that I sometimes focus too much on the knowledge of the Faith to the detriment of other important aspects of the spiritual life, and I do try to keep that in check, but there are times when this shortcoming can be put to good use.
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#12
GREAT VOX!!!!!!! :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:
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#13
(03-12-2013, 12:27 PM)johnnyc Wrote:
(03-12-2013, 09:28 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: And on the other hand, you've got Prots so messed up theologically, so WRONG about so MUCH -- who have some of the greatest hearts. I think some trads will be surprised when they see good ole Billy Bob, the salt of the earth, give you the shirt off his back Southern Baptist type sitting up there in Heaven because he knew how to love even though he knew less about theology than my cat -- while Mr. Theologically Brilliant Trad Boy who treats people like crap will be a little toasty. As I imagine things, based on what the Saints and Popes and Scriptures say, there will be a lot of shocked expressions on Judgment Day. "B--b-but I'm RIGHT!" won't cut it with Jesus. Life isn't an IQ test.

I bet they there's a lot of arguing about theology and ecclesiology in Hell.

BTW, http://www.fisheaters.com/lists.html#2  :P

Well Vox...this post prompted me to finally post on the forum. This will be my second post and unfortunately I can't bring anything to the table except questions. So........does this mean we are not to evangelize this particular SB? Besides defending the faith are we not called to proclaim the Truth? Obviously this is going to the Church's teaching on no salvation outside the Church (or is it salvation outside the Church?). I accept the teaching but do have a hard time understanding especially as it applies to evangelizing. How do we proclaim the Truth charitably? At some point we have to get to the nuts and bolts and say why someone needs to be Catholic, no?

I don't know what you mean by "SB", but obviously we're called to defend the faith and proclaim the Truth. But the HIGHEST Truth is that we're called to love God and neighbor above all, and that all law serves those great commandments. Anyone who is saved is part of the Church, but it doesn't follow and never has, that formal, conscious membership therein is necessary in se (though those who know the Truth about the Church are bound to follow it). As Archbishop Lefebvre put it:

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Quote:"We must say it clearly: such a concept is radically opposed to Catholic dogma. The Church is the one ark of salvation, and we must not be afraid to affirm it. You have often heard it said, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"--a dictum which offends contemporary minds. It is easy to believe that this doctrine is no longer in effect, that it has been dropped. It seems excessively severe.

Yet nothing, in fact, has changed; nothing can be changed in this area. Our Lord did not found a number of churches: He founded only One. There is only one Cross by which we can be saved, and that Cross has been given to the Catholic Church. It has not been given to others. To His Church, His mystical bride, Christ has given all graces. No grace in the world, no grace in the history of humanity is distributed except through her.

Does that mean that no Protestant, no Muslim, no Buddhist or animist will be saved? No, it would be a second error to think that. Those who cry for intolerance in interpreting St. Cyprian's formula, “Outside the Church there is no salvation,” also reject the Creed, “I confess one baptism for the remission of sins,” and are insufficiently instructed as to what baptism is. There are three ways of receiving it: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit. Many times in Africa I heard one of our catechumens say to me, “Father, baptize me straightaway because if I die before you come again, I shall go to hell.” I told him “No, if you have no mortal sin on your conscience and if you desire baptism, then you already have the grace in you.”

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the truth."(Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics)
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You proclaim the Gospel because it's the Good News, not a stick to beat people with. You proclaim it because you are told to. But don't do it out of a spirit of fear, but of love.  From St. Pius X:


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Quote:13. But in order that the desired fruit may be derived from this apostolate and this zeal for teaching, and that Christ may be formed in all, be it remembered, Venerable Brethren, that no means is more efficacious than charity. "For the Lord is not in the earthquake" (III Kings xix., II) -- it is vain to hope to attract souls to God by a bitter zeal. On the contrary, harm is done more often than good by taunting men harshly with their faults, and reproving their vices with asperity. True the Apostle exhorted Timothy: "Accuse, beseech, rebuke," but he took care to add: "with all patience" (11. Tim. iv., 2). Jesus has certainly left us examples of this. "Come to me," we find Him saying, "come to me all ye that labor and are burdened and I will refresh you" (Matth. xi., 28). And by those that labor and are burdened he meant only those who are slaves of sin and error. What gentleness was that shown by the Divine Master! What tenderness, what compassion towards all kinds of misery! Isaias has marvelously described His heart in the words: "I will set my spirit upon him; he shall not contend, nor cry out; the bruised reed he will not break, he will not extinguish the smoking flax" (Is. xlii., 1, s.). This charity, "patient and kind" (1. Cor. xiii., 4.), will extend itself also to those who are hostile to us and persecute us. "We are reviled," thus did St. Paul protest, "and we bless; we are persecuted and we suffer it; we are blasphemed and we entreat" (1. Cor., iv., 12, s.). They perhaps seem to be worse than they really are. Their associations with others, prejudice, the counsel, advice and example of others, and finally an ill-advised shame have dragged them to the side of the impious; but their wills are not so depraved as they themselves would seek to make people believe. Who will prevent us from hoping that the flame of Christian charity may dispel the darkness from their minds and bring to them light and the peace of God? It may be that the fruit of our labors may be slow in coming, but charity wearies not with waiting, knowing that God prepares His rewards not for the results of toil but for the good will shown in it.
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#14
(03-12-2013, 07:26 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-12-2013, 12:27 PM)johnnyc Wrote: [quote='Vox Clamantis' pid='1153977' dateline='1363094881']

And on the other hand, you've got Prots so messed up theologically, so WRONG about so MUCH -- who have some of the greatest hearts. I think some trads will be surprised when they see good ole Billy Bob, the salt of the earth, give you the shirt off his back Southern Baptist type sitting up there in Heaven because he knew how to love even though he knew less about theology than my cat -- while Mr. Theologically Brilliant Trad Boy who treats people like crap will be a little toasty. As I imagine things, based on what the Saints and Popes and Scriptures say, there will be a lot of shocked expressions on Judgment Day. "B--b-but I'm RIGHT!" won't cut it with Jesus. Life isn't an IQ test.

I bet they there's a lot of arguing about theology and ecclesiology in Hell.

BTW, http://www.fisheaters.com/lists.html#2  :P

Well Vox...this post prompted me to finally post on the forum. This will be my second post and unfortunately I can't bring anything to the table except questions. So........does this mean we are not to evangelize this particular SB? Besides defending the faith are we not called to proclaim the Truth? Obviously this is going to the Church's teaching on no salvation outside the Church (or is it salvation outside the Church?). I accept the teaching but do have a hard time understanding especially as it applies to evangelizing. How do we proclaim the Truth charitably? At some point we have to get to the nuts and bolts and say why someone needs to be Catholic, no?

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Thanks for the quotes Vox. SB = Southern Baptist. So what I was getting at is if the example in your op needs to be evangelized to the Catholic faith? Apparently not. That is where I am having a misunderstanding with Church teaching on salvation and how we are to evangelize. What if the loving Southern Baptist is lovingly leading people away from the one true Church? When I listen to the Journey Home show most every conversion story involves the person discovering the truth of the Catholic Church. Yes...our Lord said the greatest of the commandments is to love the Lord our God and our neighbor. But the Church is also the pillar and foundation of Truth and it just seems to me that more and more we are being discouraged from proclaiming the truth of our faith so as not to be perceived as arrogant.

Interesting that you used a southern baptist as your example. I retired and moved south and I am pretty much in the center of Baptist country. The Catholic population here is only 5% and I have been told I will have ample opportunity to defend the Faith....lol.  But that 5% is pretty vibrant and growing. I'd say there are about  8 parishes I could register with within a 10 mile drive in any direction including a couple that have the Latin Mass (one parish daily) and a Maronite parish.


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#15
I was thinking some more about this initiative, and I would like to try to encourage the TLM (or at least ad orientem) to happen in my parish.

The problem is that very few parishioners, including the priest, use computers, let alone the Internet.  Even if there were a lot of Internet savvy people, I have heard a priest name this website specifically as one which should be avoided by Catholics because of the bad atmosphere in the forums--though this was in 2010.  He directed me, personally, to Busted Halo.

I think some kind of pamphlet or inexpensive booklet with basic information would work better for my parish.
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#16
(03-14-2013, 01:08 PM)johnnyc Wrote: Thanks for the quotes Vox. SB = Southern Baptist. So what I was getting at is if the example in your op needs to be evangelized to the Catholic faith? Apparently not. That is where I am having a misunderstanding with Church teaching on salvation and how we are to evangelize. What if the loving Southern Baptist is lovingly leading people away from the one true Church? When I listen to the Journey Home show most every conversion story involves the person discovering the truth of the Catholic Church. Yes...our Lord said the greatest of the commandments is to love the Lord our God and our neighbor. But the Church is also the pillar and foundation of Truth and it just seems to me that more and more we are being discouraged from proclaiming the truth of our faith so as not to be perceived as arrogant.

Interesting that you used a southern baptist as your example. I retired and moved south and I am pretty much in the center of Baptist country. The Catholic population here is only 5% and I have been told I will have ample opportunity to defend the Faith....lol.  But that 5% is pretty vibrant and growing. I'd say there are about  8 parishes I could register with within a 10 mile drive in any direction including a couple that have the Latin Mass (one parish daily) and a Maronite parish.

Not seeing where you're getting the idea that the "SB" doesn't need to be evangelized. Everyone does. We're commanded to evangelize the world.
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