Need some stats
#1

In setting up a website page teaching folks how to go about setting up TLMs in their parishes, I've found myself in need of some info:

1.  Does anyone have any stats as to the correlation between the presence of the TLM and priestly and religious vocations? (I assume that such a correlation exists, but need some maffs!)

2.  Does anyone have any info as to whether or not TLMs bring in more money than the NO per capita (via offerings)?

Anyone have any advice, facts, stats, ideas that would help to "sell" to a priest the idea of establishing a TLM?

Thanks!
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#2
I posted this in the other thread about establishing a TLM...http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012...ve-it.html

It's not optimistic but realistic(?).
Lynne

+JMJ+

"Certainly, you must be informed about modern errors because preaching the truth involves preaching about distancing oneself from error; but do not make the negative, secondary aspect into the most important! Your first aim is not to fight against error but to know the truth. Your central concern should be study, your sanctification, silence, meditation, and the exercise of charity." - Archbishop Lefebvre
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#3
(03-13-2013, 09:58 AM)catquilt Wrote: I posted this in the other thread about establishing a TLM...http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012...ve-it.html

It's not optimistic but realistic(?).

Wow, great article! Thanks for that! I'm "stealing" your bit about "biting the hand that feeds" with regard to being grateful and not pick-pick-picking at priests who are trying their best to establish the TLM. The story you mention about the three priests needs to be heard:

"Three priests in one East Coast diocese, who enthusiastically awaited the liberation of the Traditional Mass, couldn't wait to learn it. No sooner did they, when they were inundated by complaints from one amateur rubrician after another, about this or that or the other thing. As a result, they no longer celebrate the Traditional Mass, at least not publicly. Indeed, shortly after the motu proprio took effect, none other than Father John Zuhlsdorf issued 'a word to biters of the consecrated hand.'"

Man alive. What is the deal with some people!?
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#4
(03-13-2013, 12:08 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 09:58 AM)catquilt Wrote: I posted this in the other thread about establishing a TLM...http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012...ve-it.html

It's not optimistic but realistic(?).

Wow, great article! Thanks for that! I'm "stealing" your bit about "biting the hand that feeds" with regard to being grateful and not pick-pick-picking at priests who are trying their best to establish the TLM. The story you mention about the three priests needs to be heard:

"Three priests in one East Coast diocese, who enthusiastically awaited the liberation of the Traditional Mass, couldn't wait to learn it. No sooner did they, when they were inundated by complaints from one amateur rubrician after another, about this or that or the other thing. As a result, they no longer celebrate the Traditional Mass, at least not publicly. Indeed, shortly after the motu proprio took effect, none other than Father John Zuhlsdorf issued 'a word to biters of the consecrated hand.'"

Man alive. What is the deal with some people!?

Well, it's the real fruit of Vatican II. Everyone is a Cardinal, Theologian, Church Historian, and most of all armed with their slightly above average intelligence,and having read all the documents they barely understand, are now ready and willing to pontificate.

tim
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#5
(03-13-2013, 12:08 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 09:58 AM)catquilt Wrote: I posted this in the other thread about establishing a TLM...http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012...ve-it.html

It's not optimistic but realistic(?).

Wow, great article! Thanks for that! I'm "stealing" your bit about "biting the hand that feeds" with regard to being grateful and not pick-pick-picking at priests who are trying their best to establish the TLM. The story you mention about the three priests needs to be heard:

"Three priests in one East Coast diocese, who enthusiastically awaited the liberation of the Traditional Mass, couldn't wait to learn it. No sooner did they, when they were inundated by complaints from one amateur rubrician after another, about this or that or the other thing. As a result, they no longer celebrate the Traditional Mass, at least not publicly. Indeed, shortly after the motu proprio took effect, none other than Father John Zuhlsdorf issued 'a word to biters of the consecrated hand.'"

Man alive. What is the deal with some people!?

It *is* a great article. I didn't write though, just to be clear. The author may have more numbers and stats for you.

Some people (the amateur rubricians) are never happy. Truthfully, I can all too easily find faults in a N.O. Mass but even if I saw things that I knew were not correct in a TLM, I wouldn't say anything because I'm so thankful to have it.
Lynne

+JMJ+

"Certainly, you must be informed about modern errors because preaching the truth involves preaching about distancing oneself from error; but do not make the negative, secondary aspect into the most important! Your first aim is not to fight against error but to know the truth. Your central concern should be study, your sanctification, silence, meditation, and the exercise of charity." - Archbishop Lefebvre
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#6
(03-13-2013, 12:08 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 09:58 AM)catquilt Wrote: I posted this in the other thread about establishing a TLM...http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012...ve-it.html

It's not optimistic but realistic(?).

Wow, great article! Thanks for that! I'm "stealing" your bit about "biting the hand that feeds" with regard to being grateful and not pick-pick-picking at priests who are trying their best to establish the TLM. The story you mention about the three priests needs to be heard:

"Three priests in one East Coast diocese, who enthusiastically awaited the liberation of the Traditional Mass, couldn't wait to learn it. No sooner did they, when they were inundated by complaints from one amateur rubrician after another, about this or that or the other thing. As a result, they no longer celebrate the Traditional Mass, at least not publicly. Indeed, shortly after the motu proprio took effect, none other than Father John Zuhlsdorf issued 'a word to biters of the consecrated hand.'"

Man alive. What is the deal with some people!?

Some people never learned "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

I found it very depressing when I first read that "word" from Father Z. 

They are the people who will be complaining about the new Pope from the moment they hear his name.

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#7
(03-13-2013, 03:14 PM)Revixit Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 12:08 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 09:58 AM)catquilt Wrote: I posted this in the other thread about establishing a TLM...http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012...ve-it.html

It's not optimistic but realistic(?).

Wow, great article! Thanks for that! I'm "stealing" your bit about "biting the hand that feeds" with regard to being grateful and not pick-pick-picking at priests who are trying their best to establish the TLM. The story you mention about the three priests needs to be heard:

"Three priests in one East Coast diocese, who enthusiastically awaited the liberation of the Traditional Mass, couldn't wait to learn it. No sooner did they, when they were inundated by complaints from one amateur rubrician after another, about this or that or the other thing. As a result, they no longer celebrate the Traditional Mass, at least not publicly. Indeed, shortly after the motu proprio took effect, none other than Father John Zuhlsdorf issued 'a word to biters of the consecrated hand.'"

Man alive. What is the deal with some people!?

Some people never learned "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

I found it very depressing when I first read that "word" from Father Z. 

They are the people who will be complaining about the new Pope from the moment they hear his name.

It saddens me that so many of them are complaining about Pope Francis so viciously here.  I didn't expect it to be like that at FE.

The Tank is full of sharks now.




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#8
(03-15-2013, 02:08 AM)Revixit Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 03:14 PM)Revixit Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 12:08 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 09:58 AM)catquilt Wrote: I posted this in the other thread about establishing a TLM...http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012...ve-it.html

It's not optimistic but realistic(?).

Wow, great article! Thanks for that! I'm "stealing" your bit about "biting the hand that feeds" with regard to being grateful and not pick-pick-picking at priests who are trying their best to establish the TLM. The story you mention about the three priests needs to be heard:

"Three priests in one East Coast diocese, who enthusiastically awaited the liberation of the Traditional Mass, couldn't wait to learn it. No sooner did they, when they were inundated by complaints from one amateur rubrician after another, about this or that or the other thing. As a result, they no longer celebrate the Traditional Mass, at least not publicly. Indeed, shortly after the motu proprio took effect, none other than Father John Zuhlsdorf issued 'a word to biters of the consecrated hand.'"

Man alive. What is the deal with some people!?

Some people never learned "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

I found it very depressing when I first read that "word" from Father Z. 

They are the people who will be complaining about the new Pope from the moment they hear his name.

It saddens me that so many of them are complaining about Pope Francis so viciously here.  I didn't expect it to be like that at FE.

The Tank is full of sharks now.

I think someone else said that people on FE would complain if Jesus Christ Himself was elected pope.  Of course, He's already King of the Universe, but it's a point well taken.
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#9
(03-15-2013, 02:15 AM)dark lancer Wrote:
(03-15-2013, 02:08 AM)Revixit Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 03:14 PM)Revixit Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 12:08 PM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-13-2013, 09:58 AM)catquilt Wrote: I posted this in the other thread about establishing a TLM...http://manwithblackhat.blogspot.com/2012...ve-it.html

It's not optimistic but realistic(?).

Wow, great article! Thanks for that! I'm "stealing" your bit about "biting the hand that feeds" with regard to being grateful and not pick-pick-picking at priests who are trying their best to establish the TLM. The story you mention about the three priests needs to be heard:

"Three priests in one East Coast diocese, who enthusiastically awaited the liberation of the Traditional Mass, couldn't wait to learn it. No sooner did they, when they were inundated by complaints from one amateur rubrician after another, about this or that or the other thing. As a result, they no longer celebrate the Traditional Mass, at least not publicly. Indeed, shortly after the motu proprio took effect, none other than Father John Zuhlsdorf issued 'a word to biters of the consecrated hand.'"

Man alive. What is the deal with some people!?

Some people never learned "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

I found it very depressing when I first read that "word" from Father Z. 

They are the people who will be complaining about the new Pope from the moment they hear his name.

It saddens me that so many of them are complaining about Pope Francis so viciously here.  I didn't expect it to be like that at FE.

The Tank is full of sharks now.

I think someone else said that people on FE would complain if Jesus Christ Himself was elected pope.  Of course, He's already King of the Universe, but it's a point well taken.

DL -- I find your post offensive. If FE is such a scandal to your delicate nature, you should considering joining CAF.
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#10
Vox, to get back to you question:
It's not an exact fit, but you might find something in the Index of Leading Catholic Indicators.

www.amazon.com/Index-Leading-Catholic-Indicators-Vatican/dp/0972868801

Pat Buchanan wrote the introduction.
http://www.olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

Quote: As the Watergate scandal of 1973-1974 diverted attention from the far greater tragedy unfolding in Southeast Asia, so, too, the scandal of predator-priests now afflicting the Catholic Church may be covering up a far greater calamity.

Thirty-seven years after the end of the only church council of the 20th century, the jury has come in with its verdict: Vatican II appears to have been an unrelieved disaster for Roman Catholicism. Liars may figure, but figures do not lie. Kenneth C. Jones of St. Louis has pulled together a slim volume of statistics he has titled Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church Since Vatican II. His findings make prophets of Catholic traditionalists who warned that Vatican II would prove a blunder of historic dimensions, and those same findings expose as foolish and naive those who believed a council could reconcile Catholicism and modernity. When Pope John XXIII threw open the windows of the church, all the poisonous vapors of modernity entered, along with the Devil himself. Here are Jones's grim statistics of Catholicism's decline:

Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven.

The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million -- from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?

Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy Mother Church.

Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway.

Jones' statistics tell us the price of appeasement.

This article is taken from http://www.townhall.com/columnists/patbu...1211.shtml

"Index of Leading Catholic Indicators: The Church since Vatican II" (113 pages) by Kenneth C. Jones is available at many bookstores.
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