My opinion about Pope Francis
#21
(03-14-2013, 02:39 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: Look, I grew up in South Texas and worked in the Church there for some time.  I recognize what I see in that video of the Cardinal's Mass on youtube, it's exactly the same thing that happened in our diocese every year on Guadalupe day....

...a desperate, losing attempt to organize anything, whatever can possibly be organized.  Quality is not only not emphasized in Church function, it is simply assumed to be both impractical and misguided.... 


...People, if you are white, you don't know what this man's priorities are.

...This is the great unknown.  In my opinion anything is possible.  Buckle up.

     

Absolutely great, Burdensome1.  You put it into words so nicely.  Couldn't have been done without that experience you have.  Thanks so much.

(03-14-2013, 02:39 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: One pastor in Honduras I saw do his very best to keep a lid on the worst excesses during the Mass, but it was only possible because the minute he processed out, a wild charismatic prayer extravaganza broke out in the church.  It was scary.  I once attended an ordination in rural Mexico where fireworks went off right behind the Bishop during the Rite, and he thought nothing of it.

Just think, this is a reflection of how the Pope is gonna handle abuse and corruption until he dies!  Isn't that nice?  As an exercise, let's translate this paragraph into something applicable to what Pope Francis may be like:

"One Pope, Pope Francis I, did his best to keep a lid on the worst excesses during his pontificate.  But it was only possible because the moment he went away, a wild crazy extravaganza of church corruption exploded whenever he wasn't around.  It was scary.  I once attended a Mass with him where some crazy heretical stuff was going on right behind Pope Francis' back, and he thought nothing of it."


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Well!  So much for form and function!  Who needs Mass anyway?  Why bug those Anglicans to switch over?  As long as we have a nice friendly pope who is humble, why, gollee, that's all that matters!  Shucks, he's only been in there a day!  Give him a chance!  You can't just judge him on past experiences!  Just wait four years, and you'll see how great he is!

Hope and Change!
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#22
Pope Francis clearly feels the milieu change, I think, but is still thinking in terms of how Argentinians will receive his actions and gestures, and, as a newbie who doesn't seem like he wanted the job, is sticking to what he's comfortable with.

I'm pretty sure that, and not any grudge against Benedict's liturgical priorities, was the reason for the mensa at Mass today. A friend of mine pointed out how uncomfortable he seemed even saying that Mass. I think the idea of ad orientem freaked him out, and he preferred what he was used to and comfortable with for his very first Mass as Pope. Same reason he doesn't sing the prayers or wear the bling. This is a guy who was at pains to hide the fact that he was a Cardinal when he went out. Now he's Pope!

Pray for his confidence to wear the office for the sake of the office, and to embrace its symbols and ceremonies for the sake of the Church.

Pray particularly that his meeting with Benedict, which is a good thing, might be fruitful in that way. Pray and hope that he asks Benedict why that Guy Marini keeps bothering him with weird pieces of clothing and arcane customs, and that he is truly open to his predecessor's guidance and insight on the matter. This is a man who, according to the leaks (I'm afraid), vociferously supported and promoted Ratzinger over himself in the 2005 conclave. Surely, then, he is open to his predecessor and preference's influence in the faithful execution of his office, and surely, as a man of such apparent prayer, he is open to the guidance of God, for which we should pray all the more earnestly upon him, as he himself asked us to do at our very first meeting with him.

As a celebrant, he reminds me of a very holy Irish priest I know. Never sings a note, very clumsy with ritual and ceremony, butchers his Latin almost to un-intelligibility (if he even uses Latin), but clearly believes deeply in and loves what he is doing, and is very devoted to Our Lord and means to honour Him by doing it.
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#23
(03-14-2013, 02:46 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: I should add.  The lay people in Latin America that I know simply think of the TLM as a white man's mass.  The vernacular means more to them than it does to anyone else I have interacted with.  It's the same attitude Irish Catholics are often accused of having - beautiful liturgy is the liturgy of the overlords.  Ugly liturgy is the liturgy of the people.  VII and the Pauline Missal mean a lot of things to different people around the world, I again caution everyone to think that this is something we have not experienced before.  I'm not saying "it'll be fine", I'm saying "None of us has any idea what this is, and judging it using old shorthand is apt to be quite wrong".

All well and good perspective. However, within Catholics, there is or should be no difference in cultures or racial differences. There's no us and them. There is we, we are one and unity regardless of culture. The beautiful thing of TLM was it was in a revered latin language and every church around the world was the same and no matter what language we spoke we could all share the mass in unity.
THERE WAS NO REASON TO CHANGE THAT.

Catholic literally means all inclusive. But the NO allowed the curse like the tower of babble divide us all.

Someone has to stick up for the liturgy and stop these NO masses from turning to Girls Gone Wild.
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#24
Also remember something, over here Catholicism is very Baroque. The Spanish imprint is still alive.

The 70's style was imported. Is foreign.

The same with ugly architecture, etc.
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#25
(03-15-2013, 01:30 AM)Ursus Wrote:
(03-14-2013, 02:46 PM)Burdensome1 Wrote: I should add.  The lay people in Latin America that I know simply think of the TLM as a white man's mass.  The vernacular means more to them than it does to anyone else I have interacted with.  It's the same attitude Irish Catholics are often accused of having - beautiful liturgy is the liturgy of the overlords.  Ugly liturgy is the liturgy of the people.  VII and the Pauline Missal mean a lot of things to different people around the world, I again caution everyone to think that this is something we have not experienced before.  I'm not saying "it'll be fine", I'm saying "None of us has any idea what this is, and judging it using old shorthand is apt to be quite wrong".

All well and good perspective. However, within Catholics, there is or should be no difference in cultures or racial differences. There's no us and them. There is we, we are one and unity regardless of culture. The beautiful thing of TLM was it was in a revered latin language and every church around the world was the same and no matter what language we spoke we could all share the mass in unity.
THERE WAS NO REASON TO CHANGE THAT.

Catholic literally means all inclusive. But the NO allowed the curse like the tower of babble divide us all.

Someone has to stick up for the liturgy and stop these NO masses from turning to Girls Gone Wild.

I don't really want to defend a lack of concern for good liturgy, but I don't think that the catholicity of the Church has ever been taken to mean that there can be no cultural differences amongst Catholics. Catholics are united in faith, of course, but this does not mean that they have to reject the cultures into which they born. Rather, these cultures are cleansed of evil elements, given the fulness of truth, and set in their proper place. Entering the Church does not mean that one must reject one's natural loyalties. Even the Jesuits recognized this back during the Counter-Reformation.
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#26
(03-14-2013, 02:50 PM)Might_4_Right Wrote: Wow! This is the best description of what I've seen so far. Insightful post, Burdensome1.

+1
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#27
I guess the TLM is seen as the liturgy of the overlords by some cultures if not precisely a 'white thing'.  That makes sense considering the almost worldwide increase of leftist influence in the 60s and 70s.
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#28
(03-14-2013, 02:52 PM)ggreg Wrote: I am not sad.

I am happy.

I wanted a liberal, socialist and ecumaniac.

The worse it gets the closer we are to the finish.

You seem very angry. Must be the avatar photo...
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#29
By my count there are three actual Laitn Americans who have posted in this thread, and none of us were so impressed by the OP as the non-Latin Americans. Hmmm.
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#30
(03-15-2013, 12:38 PM)m.PR Wrote: By my count there are three actual Laitn Americans who have posted in this thread, and none of us were so impressed by the OP as the non-Latin Americans. Hmmm.

Ah!  We must be racists!  How righteous of you to point that out!  Man, we're jerks!
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