Thoughts and worries
#11
I think as well we can add -

4. There is a lot of evidence piling up that this Pope is some type of universalist or practices/harbours religious indifferentism.  The Anglican Community has, as I'm sure we've all seen, posted formally the Anglican Bishop's first hand account about how Francis rejected out of hand Benedict's Anglican Ordinariate, calling it "needless" and stating that the Church "needs" Anglicans to stay Anglican.  Now the implications of this, logically, have to be:

A) Anglicans have valid sacraments; or
B) Sacraments are not necessary for salvation; and/or
C) Converting to or joining the Roman Catholic Church is NOT necessary - only "praying to Jesus" (his words) - this is of course religious indifferentism and all the Saints (Jesuits too) who died to convert people and fight heresy were ignorant rubes and dupes who lack the modern religious sophistication of Francis-the-Humble.

Logic 101, right?  Absolutely inescapable "If A then B" stuff.

Like I said, I don't know where this is going, but your world is over.
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#12
(03-16-2013, 12:17 PM)Allan Wrote: I think as well we can add -

4. There is a lot of evidence piling up that this Pope is some type of universalist or practices/harbours religious indifferentism.  The Anglican Community has, as I'm sure we've all seen, posted formally the Anglican Bishop's first hand account about how Francis rejected out of hand Benedict's Anglican Ordinariate, calling it "needless" and stating that the Church "needs" Anglicans to stay Anglican.  Now the implications of this, logically, have to be:

A) Anglicans have valid sacraments; or
B) Sacraments are not necessary for salvation; and/or
C) Converting to or joining the Roman Catholic Church is NOT necessary - only "praying to Jesus" (his words) - this is of course religious indifferentism and all the Saints (Jesuits too) who died to convert people and fight heresy were ignorant rubes and dupes who lack the modern religious sophistication of Francis-the-Humble.

Logic 101, right?  Absolutely inescapable "If A then B" stuff.

Like I said, I don't know where this is going, but your world is over.


Some say the Catholic Church is a gift from God.  But hey?  Who cares?!?  Everyone's the same!  Everyone goes to Heaven! 
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#13
I think some folks are forgetting a basic theological principle. Recall that grace builds upon nature. If Bergoglio has done things a certain way for the last few decades, why should we assume he will automatically change upon becoming pope? I hear people saying that the papacy will change him, but we shouldn't assume a miracle will occur (which is what that would be). We need to distinguish between God's ordinate power, whereby He governs the universe through His laws, and His absolute power, whereby He goes beyond the typical order of the universe to acheive some extraordinary end. If we assume that His absolute power will just fix things for us, then there really isn't any point in following the laws and ordinances of the Church, because We can assume God will find some extraordinary means to save us and make everything OK. But as Catholics, we know this is not how it works. Yes, we can pray for miracles, but when nature reveals things to be a certain way, we rightly take our observations as a cause for concern. Upon a diagnosis of heart disease, one does not disregard it under the assumption that God will just make it go away. One must be concerned and allow that concern to change one's lifestyle and seek treatment.

We tread a fine line when we speak critically of papal actions. But it is a legitimate topic of discussion, because it concerns us all. The discussion should avoid sarcasm and poking fun. We should be respectful and charitable in speaking of the Holy Father. But scandalous actions need to be pointed out as such, lest we all be scandalized.
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#14
(03-16-2013, 12:26 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:
(03-16-2013, 12:17 PM)Allan Wrote: I think as well we can add -

4. There is a lot of evidence piling up that this Pope is some type of universalist or practices/harbours religious indifferentism.  The Anglican Community has, as I'm sure we've all seen, posted formally the Anglican Bishop's first hand account about how Francis rejected out of hand Benedict's Anglican Ordinariate, calling it "needless" and stating that the Church "needs" Anglicans to stay Anglican.  Now the implications of this, logically, have to be:

A) Anglicans have valid sacraments; or
B) Sacraments are not necessary for salvation; and/or
C) Converting to or joining the Roman Catholic Church is NOT necessary - only "praying to Jesus" (his words) - this is of course religious indifferentism and all the Saints (Jesuits too) who died to convert people and fight heresy were ignorant rubes and dupes who lack the modern religious sophistication of Francis-the-Humble.

Logic 101, right?  Absolutely inescapable "If A then B" stuff.

Like I said, I don't know where this is going, but your world is over.


Some say the Catholic Church is a gift from God.  But hey?  Who cares?!?  Everyone's the same!  Everyone goes to Heaven! 

I suppose many here are used to your comments and know if you are being sarcastic or not but as an occasional viewer I would wonder if you are being sarcastic or are you not Catholic?
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#15
I think he is saying that, rationally speaking, any person who espouses the views attributed officially by the governing body of the Anglican Communion to Francis, is not, by universally accepted definition a Catholic.  For no Catholic can hold an opinion that others do not need to convert, for to do so is to say that salvation is not the mission of the Church.

In other words, we cannot stick our heads in the sand and pretend that the official communication has not scandalized us. 

There are a few ways through this, however:

1) Francis can repudiate the statement
2) He can admit saying it, but provide additional context so as to remove the implications which are the cause of the scandal

So, we wait.
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#16
(03-16-2013, 12:45 PM)Allan Wrote: I think he is saying that, rationally speaking, any person who espouses the views attributed officially by the governing body of the Anglican Communion to Francis, is not, by universally accepted definition a Catholic.  For no Catholic can hold an opinion that others do not need to convert, for to do so is to say that salvation is not the mission of the Church.

In other words, we cannot stick our heads in the sand and pretend that the official communication has not scandalized us. 

There are a few ways through this, however:

1) Francis can repudiate the statement
2) He can admit saying it, but provide additional context so as to remove the implications which are the cause of the scandal

So, we wait.

Why are you letting statements by an Anglican prelate affect your faith? I wonder how you would have reacted when Anglican prelates declared that Pope Leo XIII's declaration of the validity of their holy orders was imminent. 

Or when it was reported that Pope Leo X had said "It has served us well, this myth of Christ." And what would you have done when Leo X never clarified or repudiated this quote!?

You know there is a crisis. You know the baggage that Francis brings. Stop looking for scandal. You know the score. There is no need to dwell on it as there is nothing you can do and you have already educated yourself to the reality. Remember Satan likes using scandal within the Church to pick off those he desires most. Go to mass. Pray the rosary. And remember Saint Pio's admonition to "pray, hope, and don't worry." 

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#17
(03-16-2013, 12:37 PM)Ruth Catherine Wrote:
(03-16-2013, 12:26 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:
(03-16-2013, 12:17 PM)Allan Wrote: I think as well we can add -

4. There is a lot of evidence piling up that this Pope is some type of universalist or practices/harbours religious indifferentism.  The Anglican Community has, as I'm sure we've all seen, posted formally the Anglican Bishop's first hand account about how Francis rejected out of hand Benedict's Anglican Ordinariate, calling it "needless" and stating that the Church "needs" Anglicans to stay Anglican.  Now the implications of this, logically, have to be:

A) Anglicans have valid sacraments; or
B) Sacraments are not necessary for salvation; and/or
C) Converting to or joining the Roman Catholic Church is NOT necessary - only "praying to Jesus" (his words) - this is of course religious indifferentism and all the Saints (Jesuits too) who died to convert people and fight heresy were ignorant rubes and dupes who lack the modern religious sophistication of Francis-the-Humble.

Logic 101, right?  Absolutely inescapable "If A then B" stuff.

Like I said, I don't know where this is going, but your world is over.


Some say the Catholic Church is a gift from God.  But hey?  Who cares?!?  Everyone's the same!  Everyone goes to Heaven! 

I suppose many here are used to your comments and know if you are being sarcastic or not but as an occasional viewer I would wonder if you are being sarcastic or are you not Catholic?


Sarcasm.

I'm just throwing up my hands and repeating the groupthink that I hear.  The "spirit of this week's conversation," if you will.

My opinion on the new pope can be read in the archive of my posts, but quickly, I'll just say I have severe reservations and doubts about this guy. 
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#18
I'd like to know what the ultimate point or goal is in the minds of people who complain so much.  What are your goals?
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#19
To know and cooperate in the truth and to save my soul and those of my loved ones. Either the things that are being "complained" of are true, and my own beliefs wrong, or they are heresy and dangerous to my soul in which case I should like confirmation of that and to see them corrected and repudiated - along with those saying them, regardless of hat colour.

I've never been a very good Ostrich.
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#20
(03-16-2013, 12:02 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:
(03-16-2013, 11:59 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(03-16-2013, 11:53 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:
(03-16-2013, 11:03 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote: Goodness, gracious! Whatever did ordinary Catholics do before the media? Before information was posted for the world to see in a twinkling of an eye? Maybe it was days, or weeks, or months before they even found out they had a new Pope. Maybe they just trusted in God and went about the business of trying to live a good Christian life.

Much has been said about this pope's humility. I think you are wrong in what you said.

Yeah, you jerk!  How dare you dispute the grace-filled humility of our beloved new Holy Father!  This man is absolutely great!  Just give him a chance!  Four years, and you’ll see!  You all just aren’t giving him a chance to instill hope, and change the Church for the better.  Patriarchy, Hierarchy, and all those stupid bells and whistles are flippant and useless.  This man will strip your ruined Church of all its stupid stuff and make it nice.  Because Pope Francis is humble!

YOU are the jerk.

Now, now...I'm an asshole, not a jerk.  Big difference.

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have called you a jerk. But I got angry because I did not call Allen a jerk. I did not resort to sarcasm, too much, but answered him honestly and seriously.
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