Throwing trad catholics under the bus
#11
well, from my understanding the early antipopes were considered to be legitimate because they were *officially* elected by Cardinals who were in full communion. Pope Sylvester III was an antipope who was actually listed as a legitimate pope.
Reply
#12

My two cents:  We've got the FSSP, ICK, etc., and outside diocesan structures, we've got the SSPX, SSPV, sede chapels, etc. The TLM is out there and what's there isn't going anywhere as long as the Masses are well-attended and bring in enough revenue (sad to say, but likely true, too). As far as the life of the typical trad goes, nothing will change. What we need to be doing, instead of kvetching, nitpicking, prognosticating, and placing bets, is to get off our butts and [url=http://www.fisheaters.com/tlmsetup.html"]get more TLMS into more parishes[/url]. We need to reach out to the more liturgically sane NOers and "turn them on" to the "Mass of all times."

-- but if this isn't done with joy, sanity, the peace of Christ, and an attitude that we've got something brilliant we need to spread around, as opposed to an attitude of anger and nastiness, it's all for naught and won't work anyway.  That is key, and it kills me that too many trads aren't "getting" the point of what I am saying there.

If the Holy Father isn't a "liturgy hound," so be it. But we have the mechanisms in place, via the Motu Proprio, to move things along. It all comes down, really, to whether trads want to walk the talk, or just talk. And by "talk," I mean "complain."

I praise God and thank Benedict XVI for that motu proprio. I know it wasn't the trad ideal -- "The NO was a mistake, so reverse all that! We're going back to the TLM and that's that!" -- but it's an opening, a means to an end, much, much more than we had before, and a blessing. We need to RUN WITH IT.  If anyone out there is at a parish where the TLM isn't offered, check out the links in this post and DO something! And report back! We need some good news, some signs that things are getting better at least in some ways, in some places! Be a hero! Get your "stable group of faithful" together and ask your priest (remember that that stable group of faithful don't have to all come from your parish. You can get folks from other parishes to commit to attending the TLM at your parish, and get them to write letters petitioning for the TLM!).



Reply
#13
I think you should give Pope Francis a chance. He hasn't even got started and already people are complaining. If we approach this with a negative attitude then our attitude can make this marginalization a self predicting profecy
Reply
#14
Vox, I generally do share a similar opinion to your post but I am also very much of a pessimist. Who is to say that one day a future pope wouldn't just completely wipe out the TLM? I do not wish to attend mass celebrated by groups who do not have a regular status/not in full communion with Rome. I'd love to help implement more TLM in my area to assure a strong rooting before any threats became harmful.  
Reply
#15
(03-17-2013, 12:37 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: My two cents:  We've got the FSSP, ICK, etc., and outside diocesan structures, we've got the SSPX, SSPV, sede chapels, etc. The TLM is out there and what's there isn't going anywhere as long as the Masses are well-attended and bring in enough revenue (sad to say, but likely true, too). As far as the life of the typical trad goes, nothing will change. What we need to be doing, instead of kvetching, nitpicking, prognosticating, and placing bets, is to get off our butts and [url=http://www.fisheaters.com/tlmsetup.html"]get more TLMS into more parishes[/url]. We need to reach out to the more liturgically sane NOers and "turn them on" to the "Mass of all times."

-- but if this isn't done with joy, sanity, the peace of Christ, and an attitude that we've got something brilliant we need to spread around, as opposed to an attitude of anger and nastiness, it's all for naught and won't work anyway.  That is key, and it kills me that too many trads aren't "getting" the point of what I am saying there.

If the Holy Father isn't a "liturgy hound," so be it. But we have the mechanisms in place, via the Motu Proprio, to move things along. It all comes down, really, to whether trads want to walk the talk, or just talk. And by "talk," I mean "complain."

I praise God and thank Benedict XVI for that motu proprio. I know it wasn't the trad ideal -- "The NO was a mistake, so reverse all that! We're going back to the TLM and that's that!" -- but it's an opening, a means to an end, much, much more than we had before, and a blessing. We need to RUN WITH IT.  If anyone out there is at a parish where the TLM isn't offered, check out the links in this post and DO something! And report back! We need some good news, some signs that things are getting better at least in some ways, in some places! Be a hero! Get your "stable group of faithful" together and ask your priest (remember that that stable group of faithful don't have to all come from your parish. You can get folks from other parishes to commit to attending the TLM at your parish, and get them to write letters petitioning for the TLM!).
This
Reply
#16
(03-17-2013, 12:37 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote: My two cents:  We've got the FSSP, ICK, etc., and outside diocesan structures, we've got the SSPX, SSPV, sede chapels, etc. The TLM is out there and what's there isn't going anywhere as long as the Masses are well-attended and bring in enough revenue (sad to say, but likely true, too). As far as the life of the typical trad goes, nothing will change. What we need to be doing, instead of kvetching, nitpicking, prognosticating, and placing bets, is to get off our butts and [url=http://www.fisheaters.com/tlmsetup.html"]get more TLMS into more parishes[/url]. We need to reach out to the more liturgically sane NOers and "turn them on" to the "Mass of all times."

-- but if this isn't done with joy, sanity, the peace of Christ, and an attitude that we've got something brilliant we need to spread around, as opposed to an attitude of anger and nastiness, it's all for naught and won't work anyway.  That is key, and it kills me that too many trads aren't "getting" the point of what I am saying there.

If the Holy Father isn't a "liturgy hound," so be it. But we have the mechanisms in place, via the Motu Proprio, to move things along. It all comes down, really, to whether trads want to walk the talk, or just talk. And by "talk," I mean "complain."

I praise God and thank Benedict XVI for that motu proprio. I know it wasn't the trad ideal -- "The NO was a mistake, so reverse all that! We're going back to the TLM and that's that!" -- but it's an opening, a means to an end, much, much more than we had before, and a blessing. We need to RUN WITH IT.  If anyone out there is at a parish where the TLM isn't offered, check out the links in this post and DO something! And report back! We need some good news, some signs that things are getting better at least in some ways, in some places! Be a hero! Get your "stable group of faithful" together and ask your priest (remember that that stable group of faithful don't have to all come from your parish. You can get folks from other parishes to commit to attending the TLM at your parish, and get them to write letters petitioning for the TLM!).

Here is my fear. Yes, the mechanisms of the motu proprio are in place. But even under Benedict, there was talk of "updating" the Extraordinary Form. If Pope Francis has an unfavorable view of the traditional Mass, there is nothing to stop him from demanding certain changes be made to the EF. I suspect there could be reckless reforms in the works that are based on the same sorts of liturgical misperceptions that gave us the Novus Ordo. I pray that I this does not come to pass, because it will put the Ecclesia Dei communities in a very difficult spot.
Reply
#17
(03-17-2013, 12:56 AM)MorganHiver Wrote: Vox, I generally do share a similar opinion to your post but I am also very much of a pessimist. Who is to say that one day a future pope wouldn't just completely wipe out the TLM? I do not wish to attend mass celebrated by groups who do not have a regular status/not in full communion with Rome. I'd love to help implement more TLM in my area to assure a strong rooting before any threats became harmful.  

Eh, don't be a pessimist; that's no fun! 

-- but don't be an optimist, either; you'd just get all disappointed too often LOL

Really, though, the "realist" view is that we've got what we've got, we don't know much of anything about how His Holiness will handle his pontificate (how many hours has he been in there?!), and we've got work to do -- whether he's another JPII or a traddy's dream. So instead of expecting one man to solve all our problems, let's DO something. Yeah, that one man is the Holy Father, but it was (at least as early as) during the papacy of Pope St,. Pius X that the modernists infiltrated the Church. The folks at the bottom of the hierarchy -- us -- have things to DO. We can get TLMs going, or not. We can raise a few sons to be priests and "re-infiltrate" the Church, or not.

I can't see the Holy Father undoing the Motu Proprio. I can't see the sense of him doing that, not on any level. Worrying about that and using that remote possibility as an excuse for inaction is inexcusable and makes no sense. I mean, we've got people not "counting their chickens before they're hatched," but counting the number of un-nested rotten eggs before they're even laid. And that's kinda silly :P

I'm serious about trying to get more people busy establishing TLMs in their parish. If 5 people this year were to be inspired to do that because of this forum, and were to be successful at it -- think of the number of souls that will be exposed to that! Say in parishes of 300 people -- that's 1,500 people. Many with young kids -- including young sons who could grow up to be priests someday! And if, say, 20 of those 1,500 move to a new area without a TLM and they get busy establishing one in their new place because of what they've seen, that'd be 20 more places with the TLM -- and at 300 per parish, that's 6,000 souls being blessed by the traditional liturgy. And so on. We've got to get MOVING, man. For realz.

But again, if our movement isn't done with peace and charity, with a genuine sense of our having something so beautiful and good that we're on fire to to share it and bring it about and restore it, but is gone about, instead, with bitter, nit-picky nasty attitudes full of hateful, imprudent rhetoric, then we're not only wasting our time, but we're making the TLM all for naught -- not in itself, obviously, but insofar as our benefiting from it goes.

I Corinthians 13:1-8 "If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.  And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.  And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.  Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth;  beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.  Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed."
Reply
#18
(03-17-2013, 12:42 AM)Poche Wrote: I think you should give Pope Francis a chance. He hasn't even got started and already people are complaining.
Reply
#19
If this pope should end up harming the cause of Tradition, one thing is certain, it can't be done overnight.

So now's the time for everyone to do what they can to boost their local traditional churches.  The stronger and more firmly established they are and the more people that participate in them, the easier it will be to weather anything that may or may not come.

If it turns out that he leaves traditionalists alone and focuses entirely upon forwarding moral issues in the Church and society, then we've got favorable circumstances to work with.  Traditional communities will without a doubt, grow if left in peace.

We're just trying to hold onto the Faith until the Consecration is made.
Reply
#20
(03-17-2013, 12:42 AM)Poche Wrote: I think you should give Pope Francis a chance. He hasn't even got started and already people are complaining. If we approach this with a negative attitude then our attitude can make this marginalization a self predicting profecy

With GOD all things are possible.
Pope Francis' Coronation Mass takes place on St. Joseph’s feast day.
Great things could happen as did with Pope Pius 1X.
Pray...pray very hard, AND with confidence.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)