Papolatry in the Trad World
#41
Getting back to Vox's actual thread, I have seen some posts about Pope Francis that seem rather premature in their judgment of the situation. I think we need to let the dust settle a little. Personally, I think the election of Pope Francis is a positive thing. I know that my Hispanic friends and relations are over the moon about a Pope from Latin America, and I think it's about time.

I also think his interest in creating greater unity among Christians is a very good thing. I have some High Church Anglican friends (two of them are priests), who have been considering re-uniting with the Catholic Church, and I hope Pope Francis will continue to encourage and support the Anglican Ordinariate. I have Orthodox and Coptic friends who see Pope Francis as a friend to the Eastern churches.

His stern action about Cardinal Law was also encouraging. There could be a real cleaning house among the clergy.

Do I have concerns? Maybe a little, but I have seen nothing substantive to say there's a problem yet. I prefer to think the best of our new Vicar of Christ.
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#42
(03-17-2013, 08:31 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote: Meh.  Speaking from experience, the behavior of top management trickles down.  It trickles down from the corporate overlord, to the administrator, though the manager to the supervisors, and the sewage gets piled on to the regular employees.  At least, that's how I've always seen it.  

Sure, we are accountable for the actions on our local levels.  Ratzinger has fired up the laity, and I hope we keep the fire going in spite of leadership.  But Church leadership matters, too--even if we have no control over it (the Cardinals do).  If the pope didn't matter so much, why would there be prophecies about popes, and why does history bother to notice the popes as representatives of the Church?

Besides, the subject of the new pope provides lots of material for conversation on Catholic forums.  Surely, activity on Fisheaters has spiked in the last week.  I come here to enjoy conversation and the exchange of ideas.  It is what I do on weekends.  If I could be at the park with my family, I would rather do that.  But for now...howdy!

I never said leadership is irrelevant. But seriously, there is nowhere to go but up at this point. And we still have to do what we have to do,regardless of what leadership we have. But if all we're doing is kvetching, then bad on us.
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#43
(03-17-2013, 08:24 AM)JustaServant Wrote:
(03-17-2013, 08:18 AM)demoslider Wrote: She didn't say it, she typed it. I don't think Vox takes Communion in the hand, so no need to be so outraged.  :)

Ohhhhh I see.......
It's okay for you to TYPE it, but not to SAY it.
Wow, gotta love the situational ethics you super-spiritual Trads have.
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Even if she said it, when has profanity become a mortal sin?
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#44
(03-17-2013, 08:41 AM)JustaServant Wrote:
(03-17-2013, 08:38 AM)JayneK Wrote: It was profanity so mild that it is questionable whether it even counts as profanity.  Your choice to focus on this rather than the meaning of her post leads me to question whether you are posting here in good faith.  

Yeah, thats the ticket. RATIONALIZE it!!
That's what non-Catholic fundies do.

Back in my CAF days, I thought you were a decent guy. Now I see you're just another troll that likes to stir up trouble. Are YOU going to receive Communion today?
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#45
(03-17-2013, 09:13 AM)Ferd Wrote: Well Tim, he did make his first decision when he chose not to wear the stole. He could have as easily worn it, and the fact that he didn't was intentional and intended to send the message it did send. And this message polarizes how the Catholic world looks at things: simplicity and care for the poor, for the real important things on the one side and, on the other, pomp and lace and irrelevancy. Most people buy into this either/or view: either be relevant and simple, you know, like Christ, or Tradie and out of touch. Tradies are upset because the Pope, more than any other single individual, can affect how established this view becomes. So yes, Vox, our lives are affected. Top down action does affect the world. It provides the necessary form through which the bottom up substance can work.  We need a Francis who can wear lace with style. 

I'm not sure what message was sent by his not wearing the stole (since different people see it differently) -- or how you can possibly know what message he intended to send. Hmmmm. That one act could be seen as humility or a slap in the face of Tradition. See what I mean?

Yeah, most people buy into either/or thinking, but then, the average IQ is 100. Like I said in my last post, I never said that leadership is irrelevant -- but we have a choice in how to respond, no matter what sort of leadership we get. (And maybe we get bad leadership in the first place because we deserve it)
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#46
I'm really not against name calling or the use of passionate exclamatory remarks, but I do think it is in very bad taste to use swear words. I tend to think that it is displeasing to the Lord. I have nothing to support that, it's just a feeling and thought so it's nothing I'm about to defend. But I do think at the very least it is immature and lacking of prudence. You can have a much greater impact with your words if you use something more thoughtful.

Which of the following carries more OOMPH?

"What the f***?"

Or

"God save us all. These people have descended to the degenerate behavioural tendencies of the most manic victims of Satan. As if they are unaware, seeds of hatred have been sown between them, and now they fight, friend against friend, according to the will of the evil one who wants nothing more than to tear us apart. Lord have mercy. Amen."
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#47

Some people have dirty minds. Since when is "What The Freak" a "curse" word? (as if to "curse" simply means to use a word that some people find offensive).

Now let's stop with the thread derailment and talk about the subject at hand. The troll is gone. Carry on.
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#48
(03-17-2013, 10:18 AM)Vox Clamantis Wrote:
(03-17-2013, 09:13 AM)Ferd Wrote: Well Tim, he did make his first decision when he chose not to wear the stole. He could have as easily worn it, and the fact that he didn't was intentional and intended to send the message it did send. And this message polarizes how the Catholic world looks at things: simplicity and care for the poor, for the real important things on the one side and, on the other, pomp and lace and irrelevancy. Most people buy into this either/or view: either be relevant and simple, you know, like Christ, or Tradie and out of touch. Tradies are upset because the Pope, more than any other single individual, can affect how established this view becomes. So yes, Vox, our lives are affected. Top down action does affect the world. It provides the necessary form through which the bottom up substance can work.  We need a Francis who can wear lace with style. 

I'm not sure what message was sent by his not wearing the stole (since different people see it differently) -- or how you can possibly know what message he intended to send. Hmmmm. That one act could be seen as humility or a slap in the face of Tradition. See what I mean?

Yeah, most people buy into either/or thinking, but then, the average IQ is 100. Like I said in my last post, I never said that leadership is irrelevant -- but we have a choice in how to respond, no matter what sort of leadership we get. (And maybe we get bad leadership in the first place because we deserve it)

I think you're right. We still are not sure yet what direction Pope Francis will take the Church. Is he a modernist? Is he a traditionalist? I've seen and heard things about him that are all over the map. I really thinks it's too early to judge, and prefer to think the best of him. He has not given me any reason to do otherwise.
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#49
Quote:I'm not sure what message was sent by his not wearing the stole (since different people see it differently) -- or how you can possibly know what message he intended to send. Hmmmm. That one act could be seen as humility or a slap in the face of Tradition. See what I mean?

It is precisely because the renouncing of an act of tradition (refusing to wear the stole) can be interpreted BOTH as a sign of humility and as a slap in the face of Tradition that we know what his intention was (see what I mean?).
The sad thing is that not wearing the stole is seen as a sign of humility. This should not be; it is a false association. The sort of Pope we need is one with humility enough to embrace Tradition together with all its aesthetic trappings but who at the same time can express the importance for all Christians to concern themselves with the needs of the poor.  We do not need a Pope who will embrace the false dichotomy of the simplicity of Christ and High Tradition.
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#50
(03-17-2013, 10:02 AM)kingofspades Wrote: Vox is asking the right questions.
Why do trad people make such a problem of the new Pope?

1) Prejudice
Even while we have not seen or heard much more than a first impression, people knew the future of the Church when seeing a pope without a red mozetta and stole? LMAO!

2) Narrowmindedness
Liturgy is important, faith is more important, but some trads seem to be so focussed on the way Mass is celebrated... Don't we feel that the catholic world and life are more than that?

3) Lack of humility
Even trads are modern critical people who are sometimes 'know it alls', making their own opinions or those of their own group the most safe light on their path. Obedience? Loyalty to the Pope? "Meh I can think for myself..."

4) Fear
The world we live in is not such a safe place, and to lose hope and confidence that everything will be fine is... ermmm... something that can happen.


It would be very trad to support a Pope, obey him, and shut up.d be very trad to Modern trads however are sometimes even worse than modernists when it comes to their own infallible opinions.

In the end I think we are talking too much, the discussion-disease. I feel sometimes flabbergasted by the vitriol in it.

It doesn't serve our life as catholics at all imho. It affects our prayer life... negatively...

What a refreshing post!!

I especially like #1. It is true that I was hoping for Cardinal Burke or someone like him, but Francis [b]is[/b] our Pope & I will respect & honor him. I may not always agree with his actions, but a true Trad never disses the Pope, himself. In addition, to sit in [b]judgement [/b] of a Pope (or another person) when you hardly know them is foolhardy.

#2. The Liturgy is very important to me......perhaps too much so? I was born in '41 & attended the TLM. for the first 28 yrs. of my life. in  1969 the "New Mass" took over & I struggled to accept & love it for about 10 yrs. After that, I just endured for 30 yrs. Still, I ask myself......do I love God, or do I love the trappings of Catholicism.

It is so true that "It would be very trad to support a Pope, obey him, and shut up".

Thank you for your insights.
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