Wait, WHAT? Some Muslim cleric just called Pope Francis the 2nd Coming of Jesus.
#41
(04-18-2013, 02:37 PM)Deidre Wrote: I just wanted to say that this thread has been incredibly instructive, especially that part about how Muslims think of the Quran the way that we think of Christ, and how they think of Mohammed the way we think of the Blessed Virgin. It's amazing to me, how shocked (for lack of a better word) they are at the idea of the Incarnation. I suppose most of us are just so used to the idea that we've lost some of the awe of it.  Shrug

We have rather tamed the wild idea of the Incarnation in our own lives, I think.  Even though they don't believe that Jesus is God, they still have a hard time just with the crucifixion: a good man in God's favor, dying in such a horrible fashion, is beyond the pale.  "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness."
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#42
As St. Thomas says in his De rationibus fidei "[Mulims] are carnal, they can think only of what is flesh and blood." So the notion of Jesus' divinity absurd to them.

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (Qur'an 4:171)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (Qur'an 5:72)

Muslims reject the crucifixion for the reason Parmandur gave (even though we have sufficient historical evidence for the crucifixion because if we would require the same level of evidence for other historical events then we would have to dismiss a great number of commonly accepted historical events) and so they claim our gospels have been corrupted (even though the earliest manuscripts do not support their claim).

But another reason they reject the divinity of Jesus is, I think, because they reject the doctrine of original sin.

Say, "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Qur'an 6:164)

That no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. (Qur'an 53:38)

If you accept the doctrine of original sin, then, I think, the incarnation and the sacrifice of the cross is not a wild idea but an almost necessary conclusion.

Islam is attractive and unique because it has so much of our beauty and truth but it rejects our most essential doctrines. So I agree with Parmandur that Islam is most plausibly from the deceiver.
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#43
(04-18-2013, 07:54 PM)Stansfield Wrote: As St. Thomas says in his De rationibus fidei "[Mulims] are carnal, they can think only of what is flesh and blood." So the notion of Jesus' divinity absurd to them.

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. (Qur'an 4:171)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (Qur'an 5:72)

Muslims reject the crucifixion for the reason Parmandur gave (even though we have sufficient historical evidence for the crucifixion because if we would require the same level of evidence for other historical events then we would have to dismiss a great number of commonly accepted historical events) and so they claim our gospels have been corrupted (even though the earliest manuscripts do not support their claim).

But another reason they reject the divinity of Jesus is, I think, because they reject the doctrine of original sin.

Say, "Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things? And every soul earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Qur'an 6:164)

That no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. (Qur'an 53:38)

If you accept the doctrine of original sin, then, I think, the incarnation and the sacrifice of the cross is not a wild idea but an almost necessary conclusion.

Islam is attractive and unique because it has so much of our beauty and truth but it rejects our most essential doctrines. So I agree with Parmandur that Islam is most plausibly from the deceiver.

The best lie is said to be a half-truth; but the best lie has more than half-truth in it, and Islam is an example of high-grade truthiness; but accept no substitutes.
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#44
Though I will say, the Christian doctrine of Original Sin is derived from the Incarnation, rather than the other way around, especially if we break things down historically in terms of development.  I wouldn't say it is an inevitable conclusion at all, since it is a revealed Mystery.  We accept it because it is proposed to us by God, and is itself a first principle.
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