"There are those who wish to turn back the clock...this is called stubbornness."
#11
(04-16-2013, 11:24 AM)Felix E Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 11:22 AM)Lee Timmer Wrote: Robber Council VII.

:Hmm: :O :O :'((

Dude, that can't be right.

I stand by it.
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#12
(04-16-2013, 10:46 AM)Chestertonian Wrote: Well, the traditional movement does have a fair share of old farts who want to turn the clock back to 1950.  That's never going to happen, so needless to say these were some miserable people.

Want to bet on that?

Miserable? -- No; they just do not flaunt.

There is in reality now two parallel Churches, that are heavily intertwined with each other.
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#13
Unfortunately, this is the kind of amorphous language that appears significant when spoken, but signifies nothing.  "The Holy Ghost moves us forward...."

Moves us forward to what?  

There are those who wish to move forward, there are those who wish to move back.  This is the appropriate language to describe parking a car.  It does not inform us about how we're going to get the sons and daughters of Catholics back in church, in places like Europe and Uruguay.  It also doesn't inform anyone about how to rectify the doctrinal errors that are running amok in the Church.  Hans Kung isn't in front of or behind Clement of Alexandria - he's wrong in relation to him.  

Perhaps the Holy Father might pray that the Holy Ghost moves the Church toward specificity.  
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#14
(04-16-2013, 10:46 AM)Chestertonian Wrote: Well, the traditional movement does have a fair share of old farts who want to turn the clock back to 1950.  That's never going to happen, so needless to say these were some miserable people.  Although I identify as a traditional Catholic, I don't think we should just re-enact "the way things used to be."  I was born in 1981 so it isn't about recreating my childhood.  That is not to say that all older traditional Catholics are just nostalgic, but a certain contingent of them are and perhaps these are the ones Pope Francis was talking about.

Like Pope Benedict said, there is Vatican II, and then there is the Vatican II of the media and the false "spirit of Vatican II."  It makes no sense to call out trads when so many have stood in the way of the Holy Spirit by distorting Catholic teaching and abusing the liturgy.

It's got a hell of a lot more old farts who want to move it "back" to 1970.  If that's the choice, I'll take 1950. 
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#15
(04-16-2013, 11:19 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 11:17 AM)Non liquet Wrote: Well, I don't see what's comfortable about being a traditional Catholic.

I think he means we all get in our "comfort zones" and don't want to change, that is, to be open to the Holy Spirit. Sometimes change is necessary.   

Yes, but what the Pope may not realize, is that change doesn't necessarily happens in the direction of his choice. Learning and experiencing the traditional Church teaching and liturgy has been crucial to my conversion process, I felt it like a gift from Heaven. Moreover, as it is natural, the young people where I attend mass have no "nostalgia" or interest in "turning the clock back", they have their own reasons to be there, and just think of the future.  I sometimes think "traditionalism" may be more avant-garde than old people notice.

Regards
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#16
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be,
world without end. Amen.
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#17
Be not afraid!

Father Z tells us, it's not the Trads that the Holy Father is talking about, i.e. those who attend the diocesan TLMs, it's [wait for it] the SSPX.

:O
Lynne

+JMJ+

"Certainly, you must be informed about modern errors because preaching the truth involves preaching about distancing oneself from error; but do not make the negative, secondary aspect into the most important! Your first aim is not to fight against error but to know the truth. Your central concern should be study, your sanctification, silence, meditation, and the exercise of charity." - Archbishop Lefebvre
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#18
Quote: Nowadays, he went on, “everybody seems happy about the presence of the Holy Spirit but it’s not really the case and there is still that temptation to resist it.” The Pope said one example of this resistance was the Second Vatican council which he called “a beautiful work of the Holy Spirit.” But 50 years later, “have we done everything the Holy Spirit was asking us to do during the Council,” he asked. The answer is “No,” said Pope Francis. “We celebrate this anniversary, we put up a monument but we don’t want it to upset us. We don’t want to change and what’s more there are those who wish to turn the clock back.” This, he went on, “is called stubbornness and wanting to tame the Holy Spirit.”

Yes, we have not gone far enough in watering down dogma, in blurring the line between the One True Church and false religions, in promoting religious indifferentism, in blurring the line between priest and people, in embracing banal on the spot liturgy, in heaping praise on false religions, in embracing what Pope Paul VI called "the Cult of Man" - ah yes...there's so much left to do.

This is bad and I feel sick to my stomach. How long for the chastisement Lord? How long?

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#19
(04-16-2013, 12:26 PM)DustinsDad Wrote:
Quote: Nowadays, he went on, “everybody seems happy about the presence of the Holy Spirit but it’s not really the case and there is still that temptation to resist it.” The Pope said one example of this resistance was the Second Vatican council which he called “a beautiful work of the Holy Spirit.” But 50 years later, “have we done everything the Holy Spirit was asking us to do during the Council,” he asked. The answer is “No,” said Pope Francis. “We celebrate this anniversary, we put up a monument but we don’t want it to upset us. We don’t want to change and what’s more there are those who wish to turn the clock back.” This, he went on, “is called stubbornness and wanting to tame the Holy Spirit.”

Yes, we have not gone far enough in watering down dogma, in blurring the line between the One True Church and false religions, in promoting religious indifferentism, in blurring the line between priest and people, in embracing banal on the spot liturgy, in heaping praise on false religions, in embracing what Pope Paul VI called "the Cult of Man" - ah yes...there's so much left to do.

This is bad and I feel sick to my stomach. How long for the chastisement Lord? How long?

Anyone who calls VII a "beautiful work of the Holy Spirit" is delusional. The problem isn't the implementation or the "spirit" or any of that other BS; it's the documents themselves and the "spirit" that created them.
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#20
(04-16-2013, 12:08 PM)catquilt Wrote: Be not afraid!

Father Z tells us, it's not the Trads that the Holy Father is talking about, i.e. those who attend the diocesan TLMs, it's [wait for it] the SSPX.

:O

I like to think this is true.  However, it is not the general principles of religion that divide traditionalists, it is the specifics. Addressing specifics will "move us forward."  I am not confident that referring to a general divine will incipient in the last council will do so, since a) one is most uncertain about what that will might have been, and b) traditionalists are not divided about Vatican 2.    

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