"There are those who wish to turn back the clock...this is called stubbornness."
#41
Standing firm in the Faith leads to Eternal Life.
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#42
(04-16-2013, 06:14 PM)StCeciliasGirl Wrote: Standing firm in the Faith leads to Eternal Life.

Yep, no compromise. It doesn't matter if it's your local priest or someone wearing a white cassock.
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#43
(04-16-2013, 05:53 PM)Old Salt Wrote: Resisting the Holy Ghost leads to the unforgivable sin.

So by not embracing the changes of VII we are in sin?

All of this makes me sad. I was so hopeful.
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#44
(04-16-2013, 05:36 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote: Problem is things like praying with non Catholics. That's one of many irreconcilable errors, no amount of modern philosophical linguistics can demonstrate non contradiction.

Of course this did not begin with Vatican II - it was merely extended very wide in practice. Worship with non-Catholics has gone on since the beginning - the Apostles still went to the Temple prayers when it was around; Syrian Catholics were given permission by the Holy Office to receive sacraments in Oriental Orthodox Churches (and vice versa - I don't have the exact reference at hand); in 1949, the Holy Office gave general permission to say the Our Father with non-Catholics. What is different now is that proactively guarding against indifferentism does not seem as important, since the permission is so broad, whereas in the case particularly of the Syrian Catholics, they were dealing with extreme shortages of clerics and the "equipment" needed to celebrate the liturgy. Nevertheless, if it is contrary to the divine law, it can not be permitted even in dire circumstances. I tend to think it is left to the prudential judgment of the Church, at least in the case of praying with non-Catholic Christians. I can't see how participation in non-Christian prayers can even be entertained.
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#45
Many here need to do to things.

One read up on the History of the Church because they are obviously lacking in that department.

And two until the council is considered dogmatic which it is not, then why would you be in sin for believing something that the council it self, the architects of the council and even the defenders of the council say it did not do, which is teach new doctrine?
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#46
I don't want to return to the '50's either... the evil doers that foisted V-2 upon us had already infested the Church by then.

Nothing good has come from V-2 – except watered down Catholicism and excuse upon excuse for the corrupters of the Catholic faith. We Catholics who reject V-2 are not rejecting the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit if you prefer), but rather, we are being guided by His Wisdom and  inability to deceive!
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#47
Tim Wrote:...It was taught to us that when we received the Holy Ghost in Confirmation we were soldiers fully equipped to slay the serpent, to day that isn't so. This needs to be re-emphasized. We need to move forward, and trads needs to stop playing theologians, take what you know, and the TLM, and get your asses out there and evangelize. ...

True enough Tim. It is a difficult thing though, when the two of the biggest things we use in evangilization (there is One True Church, and this Church doesn't change its teachings, can't change them, same truth proclaimed since day one) is denied by the vast majority of those in the church. We must keep doing it, but the evangilization has to start at home so to speak.

I'm finding it real hard to to encourage luke warm nominal Catholics to embrace these truths since I know the local novus ordo parish priest will NOT tell them the same thing, will NOT tell them they must go to the Sacrament of Confession before receiving Holy Communion, will NOT tell them its a mortal sin to skip mass on Sunday, live in sin with their girlfriend/boyfriend, will NOT tell them there is one true church outside of which there is no salvation, etc., etc.

I'm just venting here I guess, but evangilizing is hard when the shepherds themselves don't have your back, so to speak. And just not many in my neck of the woods are willing to make the drive to the TLM and are too luke warm/indifferent to acknowledge the huge crisis in the Church.

The crisis in the Church has made it darn near impossible TO evangilize. I know the answer - its all grace anyway. Keep planting the seeds and what not. I think alot of us are doing what we can in this area. When we complain on these boards about the various scandalous things our shepherds are saying or doing, it doesn't necessarily mean we are playing theologin. We're just trying to stay catholic in the midst of very dark times.

Take that for what its worth. Hope it makes sense.

DD
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#48
(04-16-2013, 06:49 PM)DustinsDad Wrote: I'm finding it real hard to to encourage luke warm nominal Catholics to embrace these truths since I know the local novus ordo parish priest will NOT tell them the same thing, will NOT tell them they must go to the Sacrament of Confession before receiving Holy Communion, will NOT tell them its a mortal sin to skip mass on Sunday, live in sin with their girlfriend/boyfriend, will NOT tell them there is one true church outside of which there is no salvation, etc., etc.

Though I'm lucky to hear these things at my parish from time to time, one rarely hears these things at any level of the Church. When the "one true church" declines to teach these things, it's tough. I have to confess that I am frequently discouraged and exhausted by the mental gymnastics it sometimes requires to remember that it is the true Church.
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#49
(04-16-2013, 06:24 PM)aquinas138 Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 05:36 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote: Problem is things like praying with non Catholics. That's one of many irreconcilable errors, no amount of modern philosophical linguistics can demonstrate non contradiction.

Of course this did not begin with Vatican II - it was merely extended very wide in practice. Worship with non-Catholics has gone on since the beginning - the Apostles still went to the Temple prayers when it was around; Syrian Catholics were given permission by the Holy Office to receive sacraments in Oriental Orthodox Churches (and vice versa - I don't have the exact reference at hand); in 1949, the Holy Office gave general permission to say the Our Father with non-Catholics. What is different now is that proactively guarding against indifferentism does not seem as important, since the permission is so broad, whereas in the case particularly of the Syrian Catholics, they were dealing with extreme shortages of clerics and the "equipment" needed to celebrate the liturgy. Nevertheless, if it is contrary to the divine law, it can not be permitted even in dire circumstances. I tend to think it is left to the prudential judgment of the Church, at least in the case of praying with non-Catholic Christians. I can't see how participation in non-Christian prayers can even be entertained.

Holy Scripture is definitive on the topic (Tit. 3:10, 2 Thes. 3:6, 1 Tim. 4:1, Eph. 5:6, 2 Tim. 3:5, 2 John ver 9) and Councils in the past issued excommunication to those that did do this. Disciplinary Canons of those past Councils, even those Regional Councils, were and are secondary objects of infallibility, they defended revelation and thus cannot be discarded as "mere discipline" but absolutely binding upon the faithful, nothing can unloosen those disciplines.
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#50
(04-16-2013, 06:49 PM)DustinsDad Wrote:
Tim Wrote:...It was taught to us that when we received the Holy Ghost in Confirmation we were soldiers fully equipped to slay the serpent, to day that isn't so. This needs to be re-emphasized. We need to move forward, and trads needs to stop playing theologians, take what you know, and the TLM, and get your asses out there and evangelize. ...

True enough Tim. It is a difficult thing though, when the two of the biggest things we use in evangilization (there is One True Church, and this Church doesn't change its teachings, can't change them, same truth proclaimed since day one) is denied by the vast majority of those in the church. We must keep doing it, but the evangilization has to start at home so to speak.

I'm finding it real hard to to encourage luke warm nominal Catholics to embrace these truths since I know the local novus ordo parish priest will NOT tell them the same thing, will NOT tell them they must go to the Sacrament of Confession before receiving Holy Communion, will NOT tell them its a mortal sin to skip mass on Sunday, live in sin with their girlfriend/boyfriend, will NOT tell them there is one true church outside of which there is no salvation, etc., etc.

I'm just venting here I guess, but evangilizing is hard when the shepherds themselves don't have your back, so to speak. And just not many in my neck of the woods are willing to make the drive to the TLM and are too luke warm/indifferent to acknowledge the huge crisis in the Church.

The crisis in the Church has made it darn near impossible TO evangilize. I know the answer - its all grace anyway. Keep planting the seeds and what not. I think alot of us are doing what we can in this area. When we complain on these boards about the various scandalous things our shepherds are saying or doing, it doesn't necessarily mean we are playing theologin. We're just trying to stay catholic in the midst of very dark times.

Take that for what its worth. Hope it makes sense.

DD

Thank you for the opportunity to explain. Evangelization is showing the Truth we have, and if lukewarm do not want to hear Truth skip them. Our aim sholuld be at those around us like at work or those in college, their classmates. We are holding the Royal Straight Flush, we win. Bring a Prot. or some other to the TLM.

Apologetics ain't Evangelization. Evangelization is bringing the good news to the world. You and me can not fix the things wrong in the Church so skip it. If you bring the good news to someone you can then bring them to where you go for the TLM so it'll be safe and they won't be exposed to modernism, progressivism, or heresy.

For instance if you're a drinker like I was keep scapulars and rosaries on your person. Many times Providence will put someone on your path that's needs a little something to get them going, so these are handy. Our Lady will help get them on the right path, count on it.

Before my fave saloon went belly up I handed them out to lots of my Irish cousins (not really related) many of them had strayed pretty far. There always was and always will be troubles in the Church, in another 200 years it'll be different ones. The thing is you have the Truth take it to them.

tim
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