"There are those who wish to turn back the clock...this is called stubbornness."
#51
(04-16-2013, 06:49 PM)DustinsDad Wrote: True enough Tim. It is a difficult thing though, when the two of the biggest things we use in evangilization (there is One True Church, and this Church doesn't change its teachings, can't change them, same truth proclaimed since day one) is denied by the vast majority of those in the church. We must keep doing it, but the evangilization has to start at home so to speak.

I'm finding it real hard to to encourage luke warm nominal Catholics to embrace these truths since I know the local novus ordo parish priest will NOT tell them the same thing, will NOT tell them they must go to the Sacrament of Confession before receiving Holy Communion, will NOT tell them its a mortal sin to skip mass on Sunday, live in sin with their girlfriend/boyfriend, will NOT tell them there is one true church outside of which there is no salvation, etc., etc.

I'm just venting here I guess, but evangilizing is hard when the shepherds themselves don't have your back, so to speak. And just not many in my neck of the woods are willing to make the drive to the TLM and are too luke warm/indifferent to acknowledge the huge crisis in the Church.

The crisis in the Church has made it darn near impossible TO evangilize. I know the answer - its all grace anyway. Keep planting the seeds and what not. I think alot of us are doing what we can in this area. When we complain on these boards about the various scandalous things our shepherds are saying or doing, it doesn't necessarily mean we are playing theologin. We're just trying to stay catholic in the midst of very dark times.

Take that for what its worth. Hope it makes sense.

DD

This!

I don't know how to evangelize my family of fallen-away Catholics. I am the ONLY one who still goes to church every week (brothers, father, cousins, etc). 99% of them aren't even Christmas and Easter Catholics.

Okay, I just read Tim's response to DD about this being evangelization, not apologetics. Much to think about.
Lynne

+JMJ+

"Certainly, you must be informed about modern errors because preaching the truth involves preaching about distancing oneself from error; but do not make the negative, secondary aspect into the most important! Your first aim is not to fight against error but to know the truth. Your central concern should be study, your sanctification, silence, meditation, and the exercise of charity." - Archbishop Lefebvre
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#52
It's true, you cannot really convince anyone of the necessity of the Catholic Church or even that it has never changed its teachings when you get contradictory messages from so many sources within the Church. I guess at this point I can honestly say I do not know what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. Vatican II and its aftermath has forever tarnished the idea of "eternal Rome" unless you are willing to accept the premises of the sedevacantists.
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#53
(04-16-2013, 08:09 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: It's true, you cannot really convince anyone of the necessity of the Catholic Church or even that it has never changed its teachings when you get contradictory messages from so many sources within the Church. I guess at this point I can honestly say I do not know what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. Vatican II and its aftermath has forever tarnished the idea of "eternal Rome" unless you are willing to accept the premises of the sedevacantists.

The only out is Fr. Le Floch's teaching, "The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility." Which was reiterating Card. Newman's attack on the neo-Ultramontanists that would go so far as to proclaim that the Holy Father can never be in error either publicly or privately.
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#54
Sister Lucia of Fatima said a diabolical disorientation rules the Church today thats the only way to explain Popes Bishops and Clergy who continue to praise Vatican 2 when all the facts tell otherwise. Or they could be unbelievers (wolves in sheeps clothing)
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#55
(04-16-2013, 01:25 PM)StCeciliasGirl Wrote: He's not talking about the SSPX; he's talking about ALL those who haven't embraced the FailMass, and he's pointing to Summa Pontificum in particular. The Bishop of Rome [sic] is dissing His Holiness Emeritus on his birthday. That's so humble. —said no one ever.

I find it highly implausible that this is what he meant. 
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#56
(04-16-2013, 10:57 AM)Felix E Wrote: Fantastic... you know what's going to happen now anytime an argument comes up on different forums/blogs about trads?

"They're just resisting the Holy Spirit trying to turn the clock back, see what Pope Francis taught about it".

God Bless Papa Francis but this is ammo for those opposed to tradition.

This is my take on it too.  Even though he may actually mean something perfectly reasonable, I expect a lot of people to use this against trads and the TLM.
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#57
(04-16-2013, 11:35 AM)Warrenton Wrote: There are those who wish to move forward, there are those who wish to move back.  This is the appropriate language to describe parking a car.  It does not inform us about how we're going to get the sons and daughters of Catholics back in church, in places like Europe and Uruguay.  It also doesn't inform anyone about how to rectify the doctrinal errors that are running amok in the Church.  Hans Kung isn't in front of or behind Clement of Alexandria - he's wrong in relation to him.

Very well said.


(04-16-2013, 09:04 PM)JayneK Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 01:25 PM)StCeciliasGirl Wrote: He's not talking about the SSPX; he's talking about ALL those who haven't embraced the FailMass, and he's pointing to Summa Pontificum in particular. The Bishop of Rome [sic] is dissing His Holiness Emeritus on his birthday. That's so humble. —said no one ever.

I find it highly implausible that this is what he meant.  

Why?

His Holiness Benedict XVI, from his Cardinal Ratzinger days to his last days as pope, was known to criticize strongly the effects of the Second Vatican Council. Cf. "it is incontrovertible that this period has definitely been unfavorable for the Catholic Church," the Novus Ordo Mass as the "produit banal de l'instant", the happenings during the Council as being shaped by the "Council of the Media."

It makes me uncomfortable that Pope Francis would choose this very occasion, HH. Benedict XVI's birthday, to speak about the Council for (as far as I know) the first time in his papacy, and to say that those who find issue with the Council are stubborn.
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#58
(04-16-2013, 08:25 PM)TS Aquinas Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 08:09 PM)formerbuddhist Wrote: It's true, you cannot really convince anyone of the necessity of the Catholic Church or even that it has never changed its teachings when you get contradictory messages from so many sources within the Church. I guess at this point I can honestly say I do not know what the Roman Catholic Church actually teaches. Vatican II and its aftermath has forever tarnished the idea of "eternal Rome" unless you are willing to accept the premises of the sedevacantists.

The only out is Fr. Le Floch's teaching, "The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility." Which was reiterating Card. Newman's attack on the neo-Ultramontanists that would go so far as to proclaim that the Holy Father can never be in error either publicly or privately.

We're getting awfully close to the Greek and Russian Orthodox. 
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#59
This is like when BXVI once said that he didn't know what the future church would look like.  Well, like God the Church is changeless.  Vatican II is garbage formulated by enemies of the Church.  Draw your own conclusions.
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#60
(04-16-2013, 07:32 PM)Tim Wrote:
(04-16-2013, 06:49 PM)DustinsDad Wrote:
Tim Wrote:...It was taught to us that when we received the Holy Ghost in Confirmation we were soldiers fully equipped to slay the serpent, to day that isn't so. This needs to be re-emphasized. We need to move forward, and trads needs to stop playing theologians, take what you know, and the TLM, and get your asses out there and evangelize. ...

True enough Tim. It is a difficult thing though, when the two of the biggest things we use in evangilization (there is One True Church, and this Church doesn't change its teachings, can't change them, same truth proclaimed since day one) is denied by the vast majority of those in the church. We must keep doing it, but the evangilization has to start at home so to speak.

I'm finding it real hard to to encourage luke warm nominal Catholics to embrace these truths since I know the local novus ordo parish priest will NOT tell them the same thing, will NOT tell them they must go to the Sacrament of Confession before receiving Holy Communion, will NOT tell them its a mortal sin to skip mass on Sunday, live in sin with their girlfriend/boyfriend, will NOT tell them there is one true church outside of which there is no salvation, etc., etc.

I'm just venting here I guess, but evangilizing is hard when the shepherds themselves don't have your back, so to speak. And just not many in my neck of the woods are willing to make the drive to the TLM and are too luke warm/indifferent to acknowledge the huge crisis in the Church.

The crisis in the Church has made it darn near impossible TO evangilize. I know the answer - its all grace anyway. Keep planting the seeds and what not. I think alot of us are doing what we can in this area. When we complain on these boards about the various scandalous things our shepherds are saying or doing, it doesn't necessarily mean we are playing theologin. We're just trying to stay catholic in the midst of very dark times.

Take that for what its worth. Hope it makes sense.

DD

Thank you for the opportunity to explain. Evangelization is showing the Truth we have, and if lukewarm do not want to hear Truth skip them. Our aim sholuld be at those around us like at work or those in college, their classmates. We are holding the Royal Straight Flush, we win. Bring a Prot. or some other to the TLM.

Apologetics ain't Evangelization. Evangelization is bringing the good news to the world. You and me can not fix the things wrong in the Church so skip it. If you bring the good news to someone you can then bring them to where you go for the TLM so it'll be safe and they won't be exposed to modernism, progressivism, or heresy.

For instance if you're a drinker like I was keep scapulars and rosaries on your person. Many times Providence will put someone on your path that's needs a little something to get them going, so these are handy. Our Lady will help get them on the right path, count on it.

Before my fave saloon went belly up I handed them out to lots of my Irish cousins (not really related) many of them had strayed pretty far. There always was and always will be troubles in the Church, in another 200 years it'll be different ones. The thing is you have the Truth take it to them.

tim

Thanks Tim. I'll grab a handful of blessed Miraculousa Medals and take your advise. Seriously.

DD
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