Salvation and the Jews
#11
Quote: The blindness of the Jews will endure until the fullness of the gentiles have accepted the faith.  And this is in accord with what the Apostle says below about the salvation of the Jews, namely, that after the fullness of the nations have entered, 'all Israel will be saved', not individually as at present, but universally.
What you said is not in conflict with Romans 11, but neither is my suspicion or Aquinas', which I think means more than "a certain number of Jews right before the Apocalypse." Paul could have used more constricting terms if he'd wanted to, but he didn't. Is it impossible for God to bring about the salvation of His Chosen People in their entirety? I think a good case can be made, from the authority of Romans 9 - 11, that this fall under the "Deus potuit, decuit, ergo fecit" condition.
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#12
(04-26-2013, 08:21 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote: I am comfortable saying all Jews after Christ will be reconciled to Him, either in this life or the next. I strongly suspect that B.C. Jews are as well.

Then all I need to do is demonstrate at one is not saved to reduce this universal to a particular.

All Jews will be saved is a universal affirmative, it's contradictory is some Jews are not saved. They cannot be both true since the former is a universal and the particular is a negative. I only need to demonstrate that at least one Jew is not saved to demonstrate the particular negative is true. The evidence: The narrative of the rich man and Lazarus (patristic fathers held it to be a narrative and historic such as St. Ambrose) in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man was a wealthy Jew, most likely of royal class (purple clothing). The evidence that he was a Jew is the strong suggestive in 25th verse when Abraham call the rich man "son," the peripheral verses when the rich man referred to Abraham as "father Abraham" and the 29th verse where it is certain his household held to the Covenant. Finally in the 25th and 26th verse we understand that the rich man is in Hell of the damned. The 31st verse is a probable argument since Abraham tells the rich man if they, other Jews, will not adhere to the faith, they will be lost. Thus, the universal is false.


I think what will help is definitions. How do you define "Jews"? And we need to define "Israel." Is this about race? Which one? Abraham was not a Hebrew, he was a Chaldean. Christ's genealogy was mixed with Gentiles. One can demonstrate that the Exodus involved more than the Hebrews given the large number. You'll even have some Rabbis today state that Israel is not a race but pertaining solely to a nation and whoever resides therein with the same faith.
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#13
Quote: I am comfortable saying all Jews after Christ will be reconciled to Him, either in this life or the next. I strongly suspect that B.C. Jews are as well.
  And HOW exactly is this to come about?  ALL jews who died were not baptized.  Furthermore, they had no faith.  So HOW will they be reconciled?  What you preach is the heresy of universalism.

Furthermore, they made VOID their covenant.  It no longer exists.  However, Christ established the NEW covenant, and on our side we supply Faith.  This therefore is not applicable to jews.
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#14
"This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved" (Pope Pius IV, Inuinctum Nobis, 13 November 1565).

"'With death the possibility of merit or demerit or conversion ceases' — Sent. certa." (Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma).

"Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. ...  Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment" (CCC, n. 1021f.).
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#15
(04-26-2013, 08:21 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote: I am comfortable saying all Jews after Christ will be reconciled to Him, either in this life or the next. I strongly suspect that B.C. Jews are as well.

SouthpawLink's post and others' really say enough.

But I must add my own  dismay that a traditionalist Catholic would say things!  Hell is eternal, there is no reconciliation after death.  Faith and repentance are necessary before death, and must be in each person, not in a group as a whole throughout all time.  I can possibly believe that all Jews on earth after at a certain time will be given enough grace, and by God's power will freely will to believe and repent.  But not for all past time (we can't judge individuals, but we'd be blind to the evil in history to think that all Jews repented before death), and - good grief - not after death.

You (and others you listen to)  are using your imagination and fascination with paradox to play with scripture and your own idea of God's mercy to invent ideas are contrary to the fundamentals of faith, that we are taught by the Church.  See SouthpawLink's post.
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#16
I have the impression that recent Church teaching is more directed by not offending Jews than clearly teaching Catholics.  I find it very frustrating.
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#17
(05-06-2013, 01:12 AM)Doce Me Wrote:
(04-26-2013, 08:21 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote: I am comfortable saying all Jews after Christ will be reconciled to Him, either in this life or the next. I strongly suspect that B.C. Jews are as well.

SouthpawLink's post and others' really say enough.

But I must add my own  dismay that a traditionalist Catholic would say things!  Hell is eternal, there is no reconciliation after death.  Faith and repentance are necessary before death, and must be in each person, not in a group as a whole throughout all time.  I can possibly believe that all Jews on earth after at a certain time will be given enough grace, and by God's power will freely will to believe and repent.  But not for all past time (we can't judge individuals, but we'd be blind to the evil in history to think that all Jews repented before death), and - good grief - not after death.

You (and others you listen to)  are using your imagination and fascination with paradox to play with scripture and your own idea of God's mercy to invent ideas are contrary to the fundamentals of faith, that we are taught by the Church.  See SouthpawLink's post.

I agree, its disquieting to hear a trad say such things. It's unnerving to hear prots ramble on and defend jews as brothers in the faith. While all the jews do everything in their power to condemn Christianity and use its core ideals of charity, ecumenism and compassion to further their needs.

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#18
In Eschatological Church Teaching does it say ALL Jews will accept Christs Teaching and convert to the Catholic Church?

or only

Orthodox
Conservative
Reformed
Liberal?

I have know many cultural Jews, and almost all of them are atheists and extremely immoral and sensual.

I cannot see them converting to the Church, but what do I know?
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#19
The thing is we can stand on what has been handed down concerning Faith and Salvation, and safely discard the modernist stuff, but St. Paul is saying something we can not understand, yet. These words of St. Paul are prophetic and all future prophecy is not understood until it has come to pass.

tim
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#20
(05-06-2013, 03:45 PM)Tim Wrote: The thing is we can stand on what has been handed down concerning Faith and Salvation, and safely discard the modernist stuff, but St. Paul is saying something we can not understand, yet. These words of St. Paul are prophetic and all future prophecy is not understood until it has come to pass.

Tim, this makes more sense than everything on the subject out of the Vatican for the last fifty years.
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