Salvation and the Jews
#21
(04-25-2013, 11:17 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: How do you interpret Romans 11.25, which specifically states that all Jews will be saved?  A reading which is traditional as far as I can see (Aquinas held it) and which has the authority of Sacred Scripture behind it.

It was always my understanding that "all Israel" means that all Jews alive at the time that the full number of Gentiles have come in. By that time - maybe it's the Second Coming, maybe not - Israel will lose its hardness of heart. I think the passage is crystal clear. This is a warning to the Romans (then and now!) against conceit.
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#22
(05-07-2013, 09:59 AM)StrictCatholicGirl Wrote:
(04-25-2013, 11:17 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: How do you interpret Romans 11.25, which specifically states that all Jews will be saved?  A reading which is traditional as far as I can see (Aquinas held it) and which has the authority of Sacred Scripture behind it.

It was always my understanding that "all Israel" means all Jews alive at the time that the full number of Gentiles have come in. By that time - maybe it's the Second Coming, maybe not - Israel will lose its hardness of heart. I think the passage is crystal clear. This is a warning to the Romans (then and now!) against conceit.
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#23
(05-07-2013, 08:38 AM)JayneK Wrote:
(05-06-2013, 03:45 PM)Tim Wrote: The thing is we can stand on what has been handed down concerning Faith and Salvation, and safely discard the modernist stuff, but St. Paul is saying something we can not understand, yet. These words of St. Paul are prophetic and all future prophecy is not understood until it has come to pass.

Tim, this makes more sense than everything on the subject out of the Vatican for the last fifty years.

Some folks only get yes or no, and "and" doesn't work for them. Christ is the perfect example of "and" when the Pharisses tried to trick him with which Commandment is the greatest. His "and" adding love your neighbor as yourself turned the Talmud on it's head because they expressed it in the negative, not the positive as He did.

tim.
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#24
If God can save all Israel (meaning all sons of Jacob/Israel according to the flesh alive at the given day) when the full number of the Gentiles come in, it seems possible that this could also apply to the rest of the Jews (by 'Jew' I mean son of Israel according to the flesh). This seems fitting to me, and I do not see where it is contradicted in Tradition. This particular verse seems to indicate it, the Medieval doctors did not disagree, and it does not detract from, but add to, the necessity of belief in Christ as Lord for salvation.

I am not a universalist.
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#25
(06-06-2013, 03:46 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote: If God can save all Israel (meaning all sons of Jacob/Israel according to the flesh alive at the given day) when the full number of the Gentiles come in, it seems possible that this could also apply to the rest of the Jews (by 'Jew' I mean son of Israel according to the flesh). This seems fitting to me, and I do not see where it is contradicted in Tradition. This particular verse seems to indicate it, the Medieval doctors did not disagree, and it does not detract from, but add to, the necessity of belief in Christ as Lord for salvation.

I am not a universalist.

Given the state of the Jewish religion today, who will be counted as the "Jews" for this purpose? Even the Jews cannot agree among themselves on who exactly is a Jew. Traditionally, one was considered a Jew if their mother was a Jew and they were circumcised. Today though, there are many who identify as Jews (including many of the friends I had in high school) who call themselves Jewish but were actually born to Jewish fathers and nominally Christian Mothers. What of the difference in Jewish denominations ranging from the liberal reform Jews to the Ultra-Orthodox ones?

Now obviously God would know exactly who is really a "Jew" I suppose but it is an interesting question nonetheless.
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#26
[quote]Now obviously God would know exactly who is really a "Jew" I suppose but it is an interesting question nonetheless.[quote]

I am content to leave it to God to decide who are the children of Israel according to the flesh. Though I admit you're right - it's an interesting question.
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#27
(06-08-2013, 10:15 PM)DoktorDespot Wrote: [

Given the state of the Jewish religion today, who will be counted as the "Jews" for this purpose? Even the Jews cannot agree among themselves on who exactly is a Jew. Traditionally, one was considered a Jew if their mother was a Jew and they were circumcised. Today though, there are many who identify as Jews (including many of the friends I had in high school) who call themselves Jewish but were actually born to Jewish fathers and nominally Christian Mothers. What of the difference in Jewish denominations ranging from the liberal reform Jews to the Ultra-Orthodox ones?

Now obviously God would know exactly who is really a "Jew" I suppose but it is an interesting question nonetheless.

Exactly. I don't know a single ultra one. Not a single person. I've known plenty of the other forms but in the end they just don't practice. They'll identify and defend their heritage but I doubt any of them pays their fees to a synagogue.
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#28
(06-09-2013, 12:09 AM)Ursus Wrote:
(06-08-2013, 10:15 PM)DoktorDespot Wrote: [

Given the state of the Jewish religion today, who will be counted as the "Jews" for this purpose? Even the Jews cannot agree among themselves on who exactly is a Jew. Traditionally, one was considered a Jew if their mother was a Jew and they were circumcised. Today though, there are many who identify as Jews (including many of the friends I had in high school) who call themselves Jewish but were actually born to Jewish fathers and nominally Christian Mothers. What of the difference in Jewish denominations ranging from the liberal reform Jews to the Ultra-Orthodox ones?

Now obviously God would know exactly who is really a "Jew" I suppose but it is an interesting question nonetheless.

Exactly. I don't know a single ultra one. Not a single person. I've known plenty of the other forms but in the end they just don't practice. They'll identify and defend their heritage but I doubt any of them pays their fees to a synagogue.

I have known a few Modern Orthodox Jews who were very traditional  - they always kept kosher, said their prayers every day and always wore a kippah, honored the Sabbath etc. Good guys, and pretty humble - they cared very much about keeping the commandments and doing the right thing. On the other hand, I have known many more of the secular sort of Jew who can hardly be bothered to even pay lip service to their religion. I remember in high school (the school I went had a large number of Jews, many of whom I was friends with,) they would all eagerly miss school for the Jewish High Holy Days, but they admitted to me they did nothing to observe them.
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