Vaccination Issues
According to this article, by Fr. Peter Scott, formerly district superior of the SSPX in the USA, and based on sound Catholic moral principles, it is not permitted to use vaccines which are derived from aborted fetuses. This excludes these vaccines directly, from a Catholic perspective. When one takes into account the many other legitimate health risks associated with "allowed" vaccines (those not derived from fetal material) it begins to paint a very grim picture, and forces the question of "should we vaccinate at all?"

Is it licit to allow one’s children to be vaccinated for rubella with vaccine manufactured with the help of fetal cells from aborted babies?

There is no doubt that it is illicit to prepare vaccinations by the use of cell cultures from aborted babies. It certainly is a very troublesome situation if the only way of obtaining such necessary vaccines is from cultures prepared from the by-products of abortions.

The question here is whether or not it is permissible to use such vaccines if they are the only ones that are readily available. Can the principles of double effect be applied, that is when only a good effect is directly willed, and a bad effect is simply permitted, but not directly willed in itself. The good effect in this case is the immunization against the infectious disease. The bad effect is the abortion, the killing of the innocent. It is never permitted to do something evil in order that a good can come of it, that it, it is never permitted for the good effect to come from the bad effect. However it is possible to permit an evil, that is not directly willed in itself, and this is called the indirect voluntary.

Here one could argue that the person who seeks the vaccination does not will the abortion, but simply uses the cells that are obtained as a consequence. However, the vaccine is not just an indirect effect of the abortion. There is in fact a direct line of causality, from the abortion, to the available fetal cells to the development of the vaccine, to the immunization. Therefore, the immunization is a direct consequence of the abortion, and not just an indirect effect. Consequently, it would be immoral to use a vaccine that one knew was developed in fetal cells, no matter how great the advantage to be procured.

Moreover, even if it were to be admitted that the vaccination is not a direct consequence of the abortion, for the abortion is not performed directly in order to obtain fetal cells, and those who use them might claim, as for themselves, that they do not directly will the abortion in itself, the Catholic sense tells the faithful that they can never use the by-products of abortions for any reason at all, for by so doing they promote the mass murder of the innocent which is destroying modern society and all sense of morality. There must always be a proportionate reason to use the indirect voluntary, that is to permit something evil which is not directly willed. Here the reasonable gain obtained by the use of the double effect (if it truly were indirectly willed only, which it is not) would not in any way be proportionate to the horrible evil of abortion and the scandal would be immense.

If a person is not aware of the fact that fetal cells are being used in the culture of the vaccines that he or she is giving to his/her children, then clearly there is no moral fault involved. However, if he/she is aware of this, then he/she is morally obliged to refuse such vaccinations on principle, until such time as they can be obtained from cultures which are morally licit. Furthermore, if civil law should make such vaccinations obligatory (e.g., for attendance at school), then the parent would be obliged to object in conscience to such immoral means of vaccinating their children.

Moreover, it is not permissible to remain in willful ignorance on such a question. If there is a positive reason to suspect that fetal cells are indeed involved in the production of the vaccine, then a person is morally obliged to clarify the matter, and find out if this is indeed true or not.  [Answered by Fr. Peter R. Scott]

quoprimum Wrote:

Funny how ya didn't put this part in[Image: hmmm.gif] Just after your quote this:


"Rubella is only moderately contagious . The disease is most contagious when the rash is erupting,but the virus may shed from 7 days before to 5-7 days after rash onset.

Infants with CRS shed large of quantities of virus from bodily secretions for up to one year and can therefore transmit rubella to persons caring for them who are susceptible to the disease."

Yes, we should protect our children ,but not at the expense of other unborn children. Shedding virus for up to a year may not be a carrier to you, but sure sounds like one to me.


The CDC states that infants who shed the virus are not true carriers. Perhaps you should petition them to change the definition to suit your idea of it.


The CDC further states that the disease is only moderately communicable.


Moreover, it is a very mild illness when developed in childhood. The danger is to pregnant womein in their first trimester (so the wrong group is being vaccinated anyway).


quoprimum Wrote:The statistics don't lie about the drop in rubella from 1966 on. The largest number of cases in the US was in 1969-56,686. In 2003-7 cases reported. Obviously, immunizing works. No manufacturer will tell you that its vaccine is 100%. Nothing is. It has a 95% rate for immunization.


Statistics can be manipulated. As for the effectiveness, the last information sheet I received on MMR stated that it has only a 60% effectiveness rate at producing a titre. Some people simply do not develop immunity.


Yes, after some time, some people will not have a titre any more(no immunity). I am glad to see that you recognize that. The bad news is that the vaccine fails among the population most at risk for being pregnant. Again, even if the vaccine was licit, the wrong population is being vaccinated.



quoprimum Wrote:

I'm 45 and I am still immune.


Maybe you had rubella as a kid. I'm 47 and I had it. It is such a mild disease that most people don't realize they had it.


quoprimum Wrote:

I know of NO child injured by MMR. None. I have been a surgical technician for 20 years. I know of no one who knows anyone who has been injured by a MMR vaccine.


Then you haven't done your homework. Just because the kids who are injured or killed by the vaccine don't end up in surgery doesn't mean they don't exist.

From the NVIC:

Quote: [Image: annafull.gif]ANNA

Eight year old Anna cannot sit without support or cannot walk without braces and a walker. Most of the time she sits in her wheelchair. Anna was left paralyzed after she was injected with MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine at 15 months of age.
Anna was the second of two children born to a family in Virginia. She had been a bright, healthy baby and toddler and had started walking at 13 months. When it came time for her to get her first MMR shot at 15 months, the pediatrician told her mother to expect a mild reaction anywhere from 10 days to two weeks after the shot that might include cold symptoms or a rash. Nine days after her shot, Anna had a runny nose and a low grade fever. Her mother was not concerned about those symptoms but she was concerned that Anna was very irritable. Although her cold symptoms eventually disappeared, Anna did not return to the happy, playful toddler she had once been. Instead she continued her strange behavior, crying and wanting to be held constantly. Then Anna started tripping and falling down. When Anna's mother called the pediatrician, he told her to put ice on the leg where he had given Anna the injection and give her Tylenol. Fourteen days after the MMR shot, Anna's mother took her child back to the pediatrician. Although Anna had always loved to play and laugh with her pediatrician, this time she screamed every time he tried to come near her. Over the next six weeks, Anna lost the ability to sit or walk. One doctor suggested that she be seen by a psychologist to determine why Anna was refusing to walk. When Anna's mother consulted a neurologist, the neurologist immediately hospitalized Anna with a suspected diagnosis of tumor on her spinal cord. The MRI scan of her brain showed there were lesions in the white matter of her brain. All other tests came back negative. Anna continued to deteriorate and lost all control of her trunk and legs. When she tried to sit up, she would flop over like a rag doll. Nearly every week she would run a fever for two to three days. Lab test after lab test was performed to try to find out what had happened to her. In a four week period, she endured seven spinal taps. During one hospitalization, Anna turned completely limp and doctors feared she would lose her ability to breathe on her own and would have to be put on a respirator.  Eventually Anna was put on steroid therapy, which helped her to regain her personality and stop her brain from further deteriorating. However, she remained paralyzed in the lower body, with some upper body involvement and was left with processing delays. Today Anna attends third grade in a wheelchair. As she grows and becomes taller and heavier, it is hard for her to keep the trunk of her body upright. Anna loves to swim underwater because she says it makes her feel free. In 1993, the U.S. Court of Claims in Washington, D.C. officially acknowledged that Anna suffered post vaccination encephalopathy following her MMR vaccination as a toddler. 
  Please take notice of the last paragraph. The U.S. Court of Claims part. If a child or adult is injured by a vaccine, the injured party has to sue the U.S. government. The manufacturers bear no responsiblity for their products, plus they get to have it mandated. Sweet deal. No wonder vaccines remain dangerous. There is no incentive to improve the products.   Here's another case that ended up worse than Anna's.  
Quote: The story of Joseph--A mother's words
Informed Parent, Issue 4/2001
On the 15th June 1997 I gave birth to my first son. He was much loved and very wanted and I named him Joseph Paul. I had a normal pregnancy and Joe was born into the world a healthy boy. I remember holding him in my arms on the day he was born and feeling so much love for him. He was always a bright little boy, who loved life and everyone who met him were touched by his sunny personality.
In November 1999, when Joe was 17 months old I took him for the MMR vaccination. I was in two minds about whether to go ahead with it, as I had seen reports in the paper about possible side-effects and had my doubts. On the day of the vaccination I recall saying to the nurse at the surgery that I wasn’t sure I was doing the right thing, but she reassured me and the vaccination went ahead.
About 3 days after the vaccination I bad a call in work from Joe’s childminder to say that he was not well and I immediately took him to see a doctor. He had a high temperature and was not his usual happy self. The doctor prescribed antibiotics. At the end of December 1999 Joe suffered a febrile convulsion and was in hospital for 3 days. He made a recovery and was allowed home.
On the 25th January 2000, I was at home with Joe and we had a normal sort of a day. An hour before Joe went to bed he was playing in the bath, I then put him in his pyjamas and he ran straight to -his dad for a cuddle, and then went off to bed.
About an hour later I decided to go to bed myself, but when checking on Joe I knew something was seriously wrong.
After what seemed an age an ambulance arrived. My husband had spent those minutes breathing into Joe. We followed the ambulance to the hospital but I couldn’t believe what was happening. We were taken to a small room and seemd to be in there quite a long time. Eventually a group of doctors walked into the room and someone simply said to me "He’s gone". I remember asking if they were sure and they nodded. I couldn’t believe it. My whole world stopped. My life had revolved around my baby and he was gone. We found our way home and I remember walking into the lounge which strewn with toys. The silence which now seemed to rest on the house was awful.
I felt as though my reason for living had gone. Losing a child is a physical pain that hurts inside which I had never felt before and I hope I never feel it again. The cause of death wasn’t established straight away. We were paid visit by plain clothes police and I felt that I had to justify to them that I had been a good mother. One of the officers questioned me in the lounge and my husband was taken upstairs to Joe’s room and questioned there. They left and the officer that had questioned my husband walked down the stairs and out of the house carrying my son’s bedding without a word of sympathy or anything. We weren’t criminals we had only put our baby to bed.
A month or so later we had meetings with the pediatrician and Joe’s doctor. I had a lot of questions but always at the back of my mind was the MMR. I was told the vaccination had not contributed to Joe’s death.
After about 3 months I had a call from the doctor to say he had received a copy of the post mortem. It had been established Joe died from encephalitis. The post mortem could not establish the specific virus which had caused this. I don’t expect that this will ever be established because the doctor explained that once someone has died it is quite difficult to test for specific viruses.
A leaflet I recently read about the MMR vaccination stated that encephalitis has been reported very rarely after immunisation (about one in every million vaccinations). The cause of death on Joe’s certificate was stated as ‘cause unknown’ and yet it could have been possibly related to the MMR he received. Why wasn’t this investigated and how many other similar cases are occurring?
At the beginning of December, last year, I gave birth to identical twin boys, Matthew and James. I knew I would have to face the subject of vaccination again! I sent for a copy of a book entitled "The Vaccination Bible" which I found very useful and also confirmed my fears. Febrile convulsions and encephalitis are both side-effects of vaccination, and feeling that this was too much of a coincidence with Joe’s illness and subsequent death I decided not to allow my twins to be vaccinated. I understood that this was a huge responsibility so consequently I began to study and research nutrition and immune-boosting methods. There are certain nutrients, such as, vitamins A, C and E, selenium, zinc, iron, calcium, magnesium and potassium which are particularly immune boosting. Processed and refined foods and preservatives and colourings are all immune-suppressive, and even as little as l00g of sugar can suppress a child’s immune system by up to 50%.
Even though I have Matthew and James there will always be something missing from my life. Joe’s passing is something I will never get over but I somehow learn to live with it. I want parents to be able to make an informed choice, there are two sides to the debate about vaccination and parents should be presented with both. f.M. Sept. 2001
  Whether you agree with the actions of the mother who wrote out her story, you cannot deny the evidence of harm.


quoprimum Wrote:

You may feel that you have a "God given right to protect your child" but you also have a God given responsibility to care for others. Even at your own risk.


And it is my decision to decide what risks are acceptable and which are not for me and my family. It is not your decision, and certainly not the government's. I have a God given duty to follow God's laws before men's laws.


quoprimum Wrote:

I do wish there was an alternative. Believe me when I say that I am torn because of the moral issue. I did not know until this child that fetal tissue was used to create some of the vaccines. I am going to discuss this with my Priest as soon as I can. I'll let you know what he says if you would like.

There is an alternative- refuse vaccination. If you are so torn about the issue, I doubt that you would state that there exists a "God given responsibility to care for others. Even at your own risk" as you did above. By all means talk to your priest about it. The decision to vaccinate should be approached just as soberly as the decision not to.
S.A.G. ~ Kathy ~ Sanguine-choleric. Have fun...or else.

Adoramus te, Christe, et benedicimus tibi, quia per sanctam crucem tuam redemisti mundum.
It would be interesting to note, in response to the lady who posted about vaccinations causing illnesses, that I had no vaccinations as a child or adult. The reason at that time given by my doctor to my mother was that I suffered from allergies and he was worried about allergic reactions from vaccinations. I've been sickly most of my life with allergies, strep throat too many times to count, tonsils removed because of repeated tonsillitis, catching anything that comes around and so on. All of my children have been vaccinated and they are all healthy as horses. I wouldn't go so far as to say that using vaccinations that come from aborted fetuses is acceptable, but to refuse vaccinations based on a minuscule, and unproven threat, is over the top in my humble opinion. Encephalitis can be caused by something as simple as a mosquito bite, there are too many variables in a child's life to jump to the conclusion that a vaccination caused such complications. Though it certainly may be a possibility, though minuscule, it rarely happens. Children die every day from far more common accidents such as falling, shall we never let them move to avoid injury? Life threatening childhood diseases such as those most commonly immunized against by the vast majority of the population are making a comeback in those not immunized because of this trend to not vaccinate.
You are fortunate that your childhood physician recognized the fact that vaccines are not for everyone, and you are blessed with healthy children. That's wonderful. However, to say that the threat of complications are rare and miniscule is simply not true. Not even the vaccine manufacturers make that claim.
Catholic_Inertia Wrote:Life threatening childhood diseases such as those most commonly immunized against by the vast majority of the population are making a comeback in those not immunized because of this trend to not vaccinate.

The diseases that are making a comeback are doing so among the vaccinated population. And among the U.S. population, the childhood diseases are mild, not life-threatening. We are not a third world country. I would urge you to look at the facts instead of the hype surrounding this issue.
S.A.G. ~ Kathy ~ Sanguine-choleric. Have fun...or else.

Adoramus te, Christe, et benedicimus tibi, quia per sanctam crucem tuam redemisti mundum.

Quote:The CDC states that infants who shed the virus are not true carriers. Perhaps you should petition them to change the definition to suit your idea of it.

Maybe I should.

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Thought this was pertinent to this discussion.
Unprotected People #35
The Importance of Vaccination
Physician remembers the tragedies of vaccine-preventable disease
The following letter to the editor appeared in the Spring/Summer 2000 issue of NEEDLE TIPS.
I am one of the increasingly rare old-timers who lived during the pre-vaccination era. I am the second to the last of thirteen siblings, five of whom died of vaccine-preventable diseases in infancy. Born to poor immigrant parents, I remember well my mother's account of the causes of their deaths—three from "la tussa forte" ("tussa" derives from the same stem from which we get pertussis) and two from "rosolia" (measles). Even after many years had passed, she spoke of these "morte d'angeli" (death of her angels) with a great deal of emotion. Imagine losing not one, two, three, or four, but five babies! It was common in the pre-vaccine era. Like our family, many families lost several children to these diseases.
We forget. Time blurs our memories of these common tragedies of yesteryear.
I remember well, during the winter and spring of each year, hearing the whoop of pertussis in movie theaters, school assemblies, and assorted gatherings.
Today, few have ever heard this, and those who have, forget.
I remember the summer outbreaks of polio, the crippled children who could no longer walk or walked with limb-distorted limps. As a third- and fourth-year medical student, I remember answering the appeals of hospital administrators who could not find the nursing staff for special duty tending to the needs of polio patients in "iron lungs." We forget.
I remember the awful cases of measles my own children experienced. I remember the children with smallpox during the years my family lived in Pakistan. I remember those who lost their sight from lesions in their eyes. I remember those who died. We forget.
In memory of all of them, I commend IAC and others who share "Unprotected People" stories to remind those who have been spared these tragedies that most of these illnesses are still a threat. And, they can be prevented. Easily.
We forget.
Thank you for promoting vaccines in such a unique way—by telling the stories of the vaccine-preventable disease tragedies. So people won't forget.
E.J. (Gene) Gangarosa, MD, MS
Professor Emeritus
Department of International Health
Emory University

Item #T2014-5 (10/4/00)

Unprotected People #38
The Importance of Vaccination
Some parents fall for vaccination scare stories, with deadly results
The following article was written by Betty Bumpers and Rosalynn Carter, co-founders of Every Child by Two, an organization promoting early vaccination of children. As mothers and co-founders of the vaccine advocacy organization Every Child By Two, we are deeply concerned about a dangerous Internet and media campaign being waged to undermine the use of vaccines.
A growing number of American families are getting bad—sometimes even fatal—medical advice from the Internet.
For Suzanne and Leonard Walther of Murfreesboro, Tenn., a simple and well-intentioned Internet search on this important health issue on July 19 turned into their worst nightmare.
The Walthers were looking for information on the safety of vaccines for their new baby, Mary Catherine. What they found were sensational sites dedicated to alarming parents.
These sites, short on science and long on inflammatory rhetoric, claim vaccines are linked to just about anything affecting children—allergies, autism, juvenile diabetes and attention deficit disorder. Claims are even made that vaccines are the cause of shaken baby syndrome, the AIDS epidemic and sudden infant death syndrome.
Even though many of the Web sites are listing misinformation about vaccines without scientific basis, parents concerned about their children are understandably susceptible to such claims.
The scare tactics worked with the Walthers, and they decided not to immunize their daughter. It was a choice they lived to regret.
Days before Mary Catherine's first birthday, she was stricken with a form of meningitis that has been nearly eliminated in this country and that could have been prevented by a simple vaccination.
Before the vaccine became available in the late 1980s, one in every 20 infected children died from complications related to this disease, and 15 percent to 20 percent of the survivors suffered permanent brain damage.
Mary Catherine was lucky. She survived, but her ordeal certainly prompted her parents to question health information they find on the Internet.
Tom and Patsy Morris of Columbus, Ga., had a similar experience. In their case, it was a news story that drove their decision not to complete their son's series of the pertussis vaccination in the early 1990s.
A year later, Nickolas was close to death with whooping cough. He, too, survived, but the ordeal weighs heavily on his parents, who thought they were making an informed decision based on sound scientific information.
These stories are cautionary tales of a dangerous trend: junk science fueling the fears of well-meaning parents.
While the Internet has become an excellent resource for health information, it also grants access to false, misleading and distorted information that can confuse even the most well-educated consumer.
There are few areas where the impact of a health scare can be as devastating as with vaccines. It's easy to be afraid of everyday childhood ailments that almost everyone has seen or heard about.
But it's difficult to fear deadly diseases such as "wild" type polio and smallpox that most new parents in our country, and many young pediatricians, have never seen.
Americans take for granted that these diseases have been eradicated, never to return. Ironically, the global public health and philanthropic communities are spending enormous amounts of money and
effort to ensure that underdeveloped countries— where children and adults regularly die from diseases we no longer fear—have access to the vaccines some are urging us to shun.

All it takes is well-organized media and Internet scare campaigns to convince some parents not to vaccinate their children.
Unfortunately, electing not to vaccinate your child can have long-term consequences that go beyond just your child's illness. Unvaccinated children can collectively rejuvenate long-dormant diseases and trigger lethal epidemics.
The recent measles outbreak in Ireland provides a vivid example of this phenomenon. An isolated study conducted by a Scottish researcher, Andrew Wakefield, and reported in 1998, claimed that the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine (MMR) could be linked to autism.
The study has been refuted by further research and has been criticized as being very limited because it used too few cases to make any scientifically valid generalizations about the causes of autism. Only 12 children were included in the study.
In addition, there were inadequate groups of control children, and the study did not identify the time period during which the cases were identified.
An expert committee from the U.K. Medical Research Council reviewed this study shortly after its release and concluded that there was no evidence to link the MMR vaccine with autism.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration confirm that the vast body of scientific evidence shows no link between autism and vaccines.
Unfortunately, as a result of the momentary loss of confidence in the MMR vaccine, vaccination levels declined, and Dublin experienced a sudden outbreak of measles in epidemic proportions. As of Sept. 30, Ireland had reported 1,523 cases of measles, including several deaths, as compared to 148 cases for the whole of 1999.
In the United States, nearly everyone had measles before immunization was available. Between 1953 and 1963, 3 million to 4 million measles cases and an average of 450 measles-associated deaths were reported each year. In 1999, there were only 86 cases of measles in the United States, and none resulted in death.
Make no mistake: The consequences of ignoring safe and effective immunizations are real and can be lethal. The effort to undermine vaccines seeks to capitalize on a distorted perception of risk.
Vaccines on rare occasions do cause side effects. But in the final analysis, vaccines represent infinitely far less risk than the diseases they prevent.
As Suzanne Walther said, "I don't want my child to be the one in 3 million" who has a bad reaction to a vaccine. "But I also don't want mine to be the one in 10 that dies if they get the disease. I'd rather take my chances with the one in 3 million than the one in 10."
Her words are sound advice for all parents. Please make sure your children follow the vaccination schedule prescribed by public-health officials. They will live far healthier lives because of it.
Rosalynn Carter, former first lady, and Betty Bumpers, former first lady of Arkansas, are co-founders of Every Child By Two (ECBT), an organization promoting early vaccination of children, headquartered at 666 11th Street N.W., Suite 202, Washington, DC, 20001. Visit ECBT's website at:

In Christ


In Christ

I see your bump and raise you a bump, Monique. [Image: jestera.gif] 
Today was my son and my grandson's First Holy Communion, so I have taken the day off from the debate. I hope y'all understand.
S.A.G. ~ Kathy ~ Sanguine-choleric. Have fun...or else.

Adoramus te, Christe, et benedicimus tibi, quia per sanctam crucem tuam redemisti mundum.
AdoramusTeChriste Wrote:I see your bump and raise you a bump, Monique. [Image: jestera.gif] 
Today was my son and my grandson's First Holy Communion, so I have taken the day off from the debate. I hope y'all understand.

Not a good enough excuse....
Catholic_Inertia Wrote:I had no vaccinations as a child or adult. The reason at that time given by my doctor to my mother was that I suffered from allergies and he was worried about allergic reactions from vaccinations. I've been sickly most of my life with allergies, strep throat too many times to count, tonsils removed because of repeated tonsillitis, catching anything that comes around and so on.

It is equally interesting that I also have suffered from allergies all my life and was just as sickly as a child- in and out of hospitals with bronchitis and pneumonia and strep throat, and I was fully vaccinated.   I also suffered an allergic reaction to my DPT shot when I was a year old.  I had seizures on the way home from the shot and for many months after wards.  It was never reported as a vaccine injury. 
I am very lucky that I did not suffer permanent injuries.  You are very lucky that you had such a good doctor.  Of course they no longer give that particular shot because of the high incidence of injury from it- which they refused to acknowledge at the time.
Life threatening childhood diseases such as those most commonly immunized against by the vast majority of the population are making a comeback in those not immunized because of this trend to not vaccinate.
The particular disease we were previously discussing was the comeback of Mumps among the vaccinated population.

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