Vaccination Issues
#61
Yes, people who get vaccinated sometimes get the disease, no one who knows anything about vaccines believes there is 100% effectiveness, not everyone seroconverts.

Your daughter/son chose the risks of getting the disease over getting the vaccine which is their perogative as parents. It's wonderful that your 7 month old grandson survived. But he DID contract the disease didn't he and spent how long in the ICU? What if he or your other grandchildren were allergic to erythromycin and penicillins like millions of people?

Regarding the badge of counter-culturalism. Nifty that all the people you know who don't vaccinate are educated about their decision. Most of the ones I know if asked why they don't vaccinate will say 'because it is bad for them' if pushed to answer how it is bad they won't know, if asked what diseases vaccines prevent, they don't know, if asked what the symptoms are of things like pertussis or meningitis are, they don't know. They stopped or never vaccinated because people they know and respect don't vaccinate or they surfed into a very convincing website.

As you can probably tell, I don't believe all vaccines are bad and ineffective but that we do vaccinate too much, for too much and too early. I've weighed risk vs. benefit and decided DTaP and Hib for my children and continually assess the needs of my children based on their individual health and what is going on in our community.
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#62
AdoramusTeChriste Wrote:Since she neglected to mention that vaccinated individuals still succumb to the diseases that vaccines are supposed to prevent, I have to disagree with you, Aviano. I'm getting used to that, though. ;)
You must disagree silently, then, because I'm not aware of too many issues where we've publicly disagreed, LOL.

And yes, vaccinated individuals sometimes do get the diseases that they have been vaccinated against. No vaccine promises "total immunity" that I am aware of. However, depending on which study you look, at you can find evidence that vaccinated individuals come down with a specific disease in much lower numbers than the unvaccinated individuals.


AdoramusTeChriste Wrote:I think that vaccines should be proven to be both safe and effective before they get injected into infants. Yes, there are serious diseases around, but there are treatments available for them. My little grandson just recovered from pertussis. He contracted it last month at age 7 weeks while he had bronchitis and pneumonia. Thanks be to God that he is fine and healthy now. His older siblings (ages 9-2) received a round of erythromycin (sp?) to prevent the disease, and it worked. They were exposed to the disease, they didn't have the vaccine, and they didn't get sick.

Vaccines have been given to literally millions of children over the years, with no to relatively few side effects. Does this make me a "vaccine pusher"? No, certainly not. But I'm also not going to put my head in the sand and pretend that the situation of a middle-class child in the United States is the same as one in a Third World county. Access to good medical care makes a huge difference in whether children survive childhood illnesses.

I'm happy your little grandson survived pertussis. However, around 2000, when I was living in Tennessee, we had an outbreak of whooping cough where several infants died. It started in the unvaccinated, and spread to the surrounding populations. A Mennonite community was particularly hard hit.

Additionally, I have personal experience with a common childhood illness turning "ugly". My daughter at age 6 contracted chickenpox. She ended up less than a week later in the hospital in intensive care, with doctors advising my husband and I that if the abcesses and infections spread to her lungs they would have to intubate. A perfectly healthy child who had contracted a normal childhood illness, and life temporarily went insane.

Years later, this does not make me want to push the varicella vaccine; and I can objectively look back and see that my son, who was age 4, contracted the same illness at the same time and sailed through the illness with not even a scar to remind us that he had contracted chickenpox. If I had had another child shortly after this event, though, and the vaccine had been available, I certainly would have chosen to vaccinate.

AdoramusTeChriste Wrote:I also disagree with mom's statement about the "badge of counter-culturalism." It looks like baseless name-calling to me. The people I know who are concerned about vaccines do the research then make their own decision. Some decide to go ahead and allow vaccination while some decline selected shots and some decline them all. The sheeple are those who choose to remain ignorant. The important issue is to understand that there does exist a danger that accompanies injecting infants with several toxins at a time over a period of months. Ask any physician if they are willing to guarantee the safety of a vaccine. I have yet to find one who will. Not even the manufacturers will go that far. That is why Congress had to set up the vaccination injury program--- to compensate families of vaccine injured children. It's a very interesting set up. I would encourage anyone considering vaccination to become familiar with it.


It was the part about parents educating themselves and deciding what measure of risk they were willing to accept that I was agreeing with. I have never met a doctor who is willing to guarantee the safety of anything. But it is also impossibe to guarantee that a child who contracts a communicable illness that a vaccine is designed to prevent will also survive it or even survive it without complications.



 
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#63
mom Wrote:Yes, people who get vaccinated sometimes get the disease, no one who knows anything about vaccines believes there is 100% effectiveness, not everyone seroconverts.

Your daughter/son chose the risks of getting the disease over getting the vaccine which is their perogative as parents. It's wonderful that your 7 month old grandson survived. But he DID contract the disease didn't he and spent how long in the ICU? What if he or your other grandchildren were allergic to erythromycin and penicillins like millions of people?

He was 7 weeks, not 7 months- not old enough for that particular vaccine. He was premature and had to spend a month in pediatric ICU before he could come home. His latest illness began with bronchitis and pneumonia and those were the diseases that precipitated the hospitalization. Also, it is possible that he contracted the pertussis at the hospital. If he was allergic to erythromycin or penicillin, he probably wouldn't have lived long enough to get pertussis. Interesting fact: the pediatric intensive care nurses told my dil that the pertussis vaccine wears off by the age of four.

Quote:Regarding the badge of counter-culturalism. Nifty that all the people you know who don't vaccinate are educated about their decision.

Yep. I hang out with good people. It is an interesting statistic that most people who forgo vaccines for their children also hold college degrees.

Quote:Most of the ones I know if asked why they don't vaccinate will say 'because it is bad for them' if pushed to answer how it is bad they won't know, if asked what diseases vaccines prevent, they don't know, if asked what the symptoms are of things like pertussis or meningitis are, they don't know.

Many MD's no longer know the symptoms of the supposedly "preventable" diseases, either. For example, my oldest kids (oldest is 28 now) got their shots (a grand total of 5) like clockwork. Then there was an outbreak of the vaccine strain of mumps. Two of my three vaccinees got the mumps and the doctor said that it was impossible. LOL. He refused to believe his own eyes. That was an eye-opener, to say the least. It taught me that ultimately, the responsibility for my children's health rests with me.

 
Quote:They stopped or never vaccinated because people they know and respect don't vaccinate or they surfed into a very convincing website.

There is a lot of good information on the Web, but perhaps you are judging harshly and the people just have kids who had a bad reaction. My 4th had a very bad reaction to her first DPT. She couldn't have anymore.

Quote:As you can probably tell, I don't believe all vaccines are bad and ineffective but that we do vaccinate too much, for too much and too early. I've weighed risk vs. benefit and decided DTaP and Hib for my children and continually assess the needs of my children based on their individual health and what is going on in our community.

I absolutely agree that there are too many and too much. I have spent tons of time researching this issue, once for a grade for a persuasive essay as well as on an ongoing basis because I am a mother and grandmother. I have 8 kids. 5 are adults and can now make their own decisions and 3 are still elementary school age. The three youngest have not had any vaccines at all, and I have noticed that they have fewer ear infections and allergies than their older siblings. Not this week though... they are hacking all over each other just like their vaccinated classmates. [Image: sick.gif]
S.A.G. ~ Kathy ~ Sanguine-choleric. Have fun...or else.

Adoramus te, Christe, et benedicimus tibi, quia per sanctam crucem tuam redemisti mundum.
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#64
Aviano Wrote:
AdoramusTeChriste Wrote:Since she neglected to mention that vaccinated individuals still succumb to the diseases that vaccines are supposed to prevent, I have to disagree with you, Aviano. I'm getting used to that, though. ;)
You must disagree silently, then, because I'm not aware of too many issues where we've publicly disagreed, LOL.
Well, we agree on what constitutes a great looking shoe. :)

Quote: And yes, vaccinated individuals sometimes do get the diseases that they have been vaccinated against. No vaccine promises "total immunity" that I am aware of. However, depending on which study you look, at you can find evidence that vaccinated individuals come down with a specific disease in much lower numbers than the unvaccinated individuals.
I would agree that a lot depends on the study. There is a tendency to under-report a contracted disease in a vaccinated individual as well as a tendency to under-report vaccine reactions. Most kids don't drop dead 15 minutes after a vaccination so there is a lot of denial going on. That's part of what makes this such a controversial issue- the failure rate.

Quote:
AdoramusTeChriste Wrote:I think that vaccines should be proven to be both safe and effective before they get injected into infants. Yes, there are serious diseases around, but there are treatments available for them. My little grandson just recovered from pertussis. He contracted it last month at age 7 weeks while he had bronchitis and pneumonia. Thanks be to God that he is fine and healthy now. His older siblings (ages 9-2) received a round of erythromycin (sp?) to prevent the disease, and it worked. They were exposed to the disease, they didn't have the vaccine, and they didn't get sick.

Vaccines have been given to literally millions of children over the years, with no to relatively few side effects.
I disagree. The side effects are many and varied and keep piling up. Diabetes and child obesity are now linked to vaccines due to the effect of vaccination triggered immune response on the hypothalamus. There's a new article about it in The Open Endocrinology Journal. LINK It'a a pdf file, so I hope the link works.


Quote:Does this make me a "vaccine pusher"? No, certainly not. But I'm also not going to put my head in the sand and pretend that the situation of a middle-class child in the United States is the same as one in a Third World county. Access to good medical care makes a huge difference in whether children survive childhood illnesses.

I don't think you or I or mom have our heads in the sand. We are all trying to make informed decisions. Part of that is gathering information and keeping it in perspective. The comparison of middle-class kids to Third World conditions is definitely an interesting one. One of the best ways to prevent disease is by clean living. I have read lots of statistical information that pits civil engineering against vaccines. In the US, we got both in a big way at about the same time and vaccines got the credit. In Third World areas, vaccines don't make much of a dent in disease because there isn't decent sanitation available. In other words, a flush toilet does a lot more to prevent disease than a vaccine.

Quote:I'm happy your little grandson survived pertussis. However, around 2000, when I was living in Tennessee, we had an outbreak of whooping cough where several infants died. It started in the unvaccinated, and spread to the surrounding populations. A Mennonite community was particularly hard hit.
Thank you, and I heard about that outbreak. As with most controversial issues, accuracy depends on who is doing the reporting. My youngest was born in December of 2000 and his doctor was telling me the same thing- who started it, who died from it, etc. The problem with the statistics in that outbreak was the under reporting of illness among vaccinated individuals. Doctors were unlikely to order lab tests to confirm pertussis in vaccinated people so there is not a reliable standard for drawing conclusions about that outbreak.


Quote:Additionally, I have personal experience with a common childhood illness turning "ugly". My daughter at age 6 contracted chickenpox. She ended up less than a week later in the hospital in intensive care, with doctors advising my husband and I that if the abcesses and infections spread to her lungs they would have to intubate. A perfectly healthy child who had contracted a normal childhood illness, and life temporarily went insane.
I am glad that your daughter recovered! When my oldest kids had chickenpox two of them breezed through it and one was literally covered head to toe.


Quote:Years later, this does not make me want to push the varicella vaccine; and I can objectively look back and see that my son, who was age 4, contracted the same illness at the same time and sailed through the illness with not even a scar to remind us that he had contracted chickenpox. If I had had another child shortly after this event, though, and the vaccine had been available, I certainly would have chosen to vaccinate.

As parents, we all want what is best for our kids.



S.A.G. ~ Kathy ~ Sanguine-choleric. Have fun...or else.

Adoramus te, Christe, et benedicimus tibi, quia per sanctam crucem tuam redemisti mundum.
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#65
I have a serious concern about the link of vaccines made from human embroys. I have 3 children and have not vaccinated any of them beacuse of this issue and also the possible link to autism. I have heard there are alternatives that do not use human embroys however i am unsure of any being available in Sydney Australia.
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#66
Zoric Wrote:I have a serious concern about the link of vaccines made from human embroys. I have 3 children and have not vaccinated any of them beacuse of this issue and also the possible link to autism. I have heard there are alternatives that do not use human embroys however i am unsure of any being available in Sydney Australia.

Here's a list of vaccines that are made from Human embryos (at least their US names), and alternatives that exist for them (and these alternatives have been approved by the US Food and Drug Administration, so I assume they'd be allowed in Sydney).

Me Wrote:Vaccines Made from Human Embryos

Polio

Poliovax (polio-E-IPV): Manufactured by Pasteur Merieux Conaught Labs. Made from human cell line MRC5.

Measles, Mumps, and Rubella (MMR)

MMR II: Manufactured by Merck Sharp & Dohme. Made from line WI-38.
(Note: The MMR is a combination of three vaccines. The measles and mumps vaccines are the same ones listed under the "Alternatives" section. The Rubella vaccine is the one made from line WI-38).

Rabies

Imovax HDCV: Manufactured by Pasteur Merieux Connaught. Line MRC-5.

Hepatitis A


Havarix: Manufactured by Glasko-Smith-Kline. Uses line MRC-5.
VAQTA: Manufactured by Merck Sharp & Dohme. Uses line MRC-5.
TWINRIX: Manufactured by Glasko-Smith-Kline. Uses MRC-5.
(Note TWINRIX is a joint Hep A and Hep B drug. The HEP B portion is not made from human stem cell lines, and no HEP B drug is made from human embryos. The HEP A portion is Havarix).

Chickenpox (Varicella)

Varivax or Varicella: Manufactured by Merck Sharp & Dohme. Uses WI-38.

Alternatives

Polio

IPOL: Manufactured by Pasteur-Merieux Connaught Labs. Monkey kidneys.
Orimune: Lerderle Labs. Monkey kidney cells. (Note: Drug is given orally).

Measles

Attenuvax: Manufactured by Merck Sharpe & Dohme. Chick embryos.

Mumps

Mumpsvax: Manufactured by Merck Sharpe & Dohme. Chick embryos.

Rubella

No licensed alternative.

Rabies

RVA: Manufactured by Glasko-Smith-Kline. Rhesus monkey.
RabAvert (PECE): Manufactured by Chirion Bering Gmbl & Co. Chick embryo.

Hepatitis A

No licensed alternative.

Chickenpox (Varicella)

No licensed alternative.

All other current vaccines are not made from human stem cell lines.
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