Did mary have a vaginal Birth.
#21
(04-30-2013, 04:12 PM)loggats Wrote: Neat pic, but virginity = intact hymen doesn't always follow.

I'm really not going to go into it any further than that, for the sake of other people's sensibilities here.  It really does not need to be explained any further.
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#22
I am finding this ridiculous. People have no problem believing that Mary had a sort of supernatural cesarean section but they can't accept that she could have given birth in the usual way while miraculously preserving the "accidents" of virginity? Jesus' birth was described as being like light passing through glass, but this could have happened in more than one way. If he could pass out of her abdomen without tearing it open, he could pass through the normal way without doing damage to her virginity.
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#23
(04-30-2013, 04:53 PM)Satori Wrote: Jesus' birth was described as being like light passing through glass, but this could have happened in more than one way. If he could pass out of her abdomen without tearing it open, he could pass through the normal way without doing damage to her virginity.

I'm not saying it could not have happened that way.  However, it was not a natural birth.
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#24
From the perspective of the culture, time and place, the retention of the hymen is necessary for belief in virginity so the light passing explanation is more sensible. Whether as light through the glass of her belly or any other part of her body is irrelevant. That being said, it doesn't matter to us. Her virginity, and its sign, the hymen, would have had to remain intact lest the claim of miraculous conception and birth be outright fraudulent (in appearance) per chance any investigation were to occur, before or after birth. Of course, God could stave this off but the point being is that the hymen, that sign of virginity, could not be broken. We now know of course that such a thing can occur from many activities. But this is not the point.

And frankly, I'm getting sick of these sorts of ridiculous questions from Jim111 as they have no bearing on the doctrinal tenets. It bespeaks a sort of curiosity which is focused on the wrong things, in my opinion.
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#25
(04-30-2013, 06:11 PM)jonbhorton Wrote: From the perspective of the culture, time and place, the retention of the hymen is necessary for belief in virginity so the light passing explanation is more sensible. Whether as light through the glass of her belly or any other part of her body is irrelevant. That being said, it doesn't matter to us. Her virginity, and its sign, the hymen, would have had to remain intact lest the claim of miraculous conception and birth be outright fraudulent (in appearance) per chance any investigation were to occur, before or after birth. Of course, God could stave this off but the point being is that the hymen, that sign of virginity, could not be broken. We now know of course that such a thing can occur from many activities. But this is not the point.

And frankly, I'm getting sick of these sorts of ridiculous questions from Jim111 as they have no bearing on the doctrinal tenets. It bespeaks a sort of curiosity which is focused on the wrong things, in my opinion.

I agree with all of this.
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#26
(04-30-2013, 05:49 PM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote:
(04-30-2013, 04:53 PM)Satori Wrote: Jesus' birth was described as being like light passing through glass, but this could have happened in more than one way. If he could pass out of her abdomen without tearing it open, he could pass through the normal way without doing damage to her virginity.

I'm not saying it could not have happened that way.  However, it was not a natural birth.

Okay, I grant you that.
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#27
(04-30-2013, 01:49 PM)Doce Me Wrote:
(04-29-2013, 09:17 PM)DrBombay Wrote: I heard a priest on EWTN say she was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Our Lord. Fr. Angelus something or other.  Older guy with a beard. Of course, EWTN is a Network Gone Wrong, so what do they know?

That's not just EWTN,  that's Catholic dogma.

"Catholic Encyclopedia" Wrote:Virgin Birth of Christ

The dogma which teaches that the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ was a virgin before, during, and after the conception and birth of her Divine Son.

And how do we know the Catholic Encyclopedia is not An Encyclopedia Gone Wrong?  Where's Christopher Ferrari when we need him?

That's why I'm here, to ask the tough questions.  :tiphat:
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#28
Unless it brings you somehow closer to Jesus...Why ask why?


Oh my Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.--Fr Dolindo Ruotolo

Persevere..Eucharist, Holy Rosary, Brown Scapular, Confession. You will win.
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#29
Jesus is truly God and truly man, therefore he had a human birth.
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#30
(05-01-2013, 03:41 AM)Poche Wrote: Jesus is truly God and truly man, therefore he had a human birth.

St Alphonsus says that she didn't have the normal birth. He bases it on the figure of the burning bush that Moses encountered, where it was burning but it wasn't consumed - a figure of Mary who gave birth but remained a virgin (i.e. wasn't consumed, remained intact). He also bases it on Song of Solomon verse which says something like "My sister, my bride, is a locked garden a locked rock garden, a sealed up spring". How can you be a spring yet be sealed up? Aha! Because it refers to Mary, who gave forth yet remained sealed up.
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