Orthodoxy, TLM, NO
#11
The irony is that the Orthodox are warming up quite nicely to the Church. I guess when there is reconciliation, they'll seem to be the Orthodox of the Strict Observance. Why not save your time and pray to God to help you in a time of cross and tribulation? Don't run away from the Cross, folks. The Church is the Church. We pray for our separated brethren, but it is absolutely unwise to go over to them because of their liturgy. Just think how mixed up that list of priorities is that leads to that. Keep the communion and find a good place to worship. Offer up your sacrifices and be united to the Cross. This place is passing, and the liturgy will never be "just right" until in heaven.
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#12
(05-14-2013, 09:36 AM)Old Salt Wrote: The Orthodox are not Catholic, Bucko.

Then why are they permitted to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, bucko?

See, e.g., http://old.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/communion.shtml
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#13
What a ridiculous reason to abandon the Catholic faith. While the institution of the liturgy is of divine origin, its practice and form are the work of men. Sure, maybe the Orthodox Divine Liturgies are usually prettier and more "reverent" than the Novus Ordo (although I certainly take issue with the suggestion that they never deviate from the rubrics or tradition.) Even if that was true, to become Orthodox requries a complete theological and philosophical shift from being a Catholic. To convert you would have to answer at least these questions: Are you willing to deny the dogmas of the immaculate conception and the assumption? Are you willing to deny the existence of purgatory? Do you reject the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son? Do you think that there is a real distinction between the essence and energies of God, which Western theologians have always rejected as heretical and verging on polytheistic? Are you going to adopt the Orthodox view of original sin or the notion that all souls are in the presence of God in the afterlife?

I could go on and on - but the point is, to reject the Catholic faith because of how much you don't like altar girls is asinine. If you do not have the maturity to handle that, then I am sure there will be something in Orthodoxy you can't deal with either.
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#14
There are very traditional and orthodox (small o) parishes in the Eastern rite Catholic church....thus remaining g in communion with Rome but avoiding what you dislike
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#15
(05-14-2013, 09:56 AM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote:
(05-14-2013, 09:36 AM)Old Salt Wrote: The Orthodox are not Catholic, Bucko.

Then why are they permitted to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, bucko?

See, e.g., http://old.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/communion.shtml
The CCC passage reiterates what I said namely that the Orthodox are NOT in communion with the Church, and therefore NOT Catholic:

"The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. "These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy." A certain communion in sacris...is not merely possible but is encouraged." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, number 1399)

The CCC  says  "These Churches, although separated from us...,"

S E P E R A T E D, AS IN NOT PART OF.

also:
[ambigiously] "a certain communion in sacris...is not merely possible but encouraged."

It does not say "Communion".

They are not Catholic.
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#16
(05-14-2013, 10:05 AM)DoktorDespot Wrote: What a ridiculous reason to abandon the Catholic faith. While the institution of the liturgy is of divine origin, its practice and form are the work of men. Sure, maybe the Orthodox Divine Liturgies are usually prettier and more "reverent" than the Novus Ordo (although I certainly take issue with the suggestion that they never deviate from the rubrics or tradition.) Even if that was true, to become Orthodox requries a complete theological and philosophical shift from being a Catholic. To convert you would have to answer at least these questions: Are you willing to deny the dogmas of the immaculate conception and the assumption? Are you willing to deny the existence of purgatory? Do you reject the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son? Do you think that there is a real distinction between the essence and energies of God, which Western theologians have always rejected as heretical and verging on polytheistic? Are you going to adopt the Orthodox view of original sin or the notion that all souls are in the presence of God in the afterlife?

I could go on and on - but the point is, to reject the Catholic faith because of how much you don't like altar girls is asinine. If you do not have the maturity to handle that, then I am sure there will be something in Orthodoxy you can't deal with either.

I would not say it's ridiculous, because that would be the same thing as saying that liturgical abuse, and the its accompanying loss of faith -or perhaps loss of understanding is the better phrase - is trivial.  Rather, as I have argued elsewhere, the Orthodox suffer from a different set of problems than Catholics, but their problems are no less related to the larger problem we have.  As Greece and Russia both demonstrate, the contraception problem is acute in the Orthodox world.  Many of their clergy today  make the same "pastoral" accommodation to the world that some Catholics priests tried to make until Pope John Paul II firmly insisted on applying Humanae Vitae in the early 80s.  It's even worse for them, because many of their clergy are married, and the refusal to live a truly Christian reproductive life is evident for all to see.  Both the Catholic liturgical chaos and the Orthodox sexual morality chaos are rooted in the folly of attempting to change the Church to satisfy the demands of the modern world.  Aggiornamento, someone called it.  

If you leave the Catholic Church for the East, be aware that you will find no respite from the fight.  You simply go to fight on another front.  Moreover, it is a front which will require you to publicly and visibly confront your neighbors on a deeply personal level.  Take my word for it, you are not going to get much love in the ordinary urban or suburban parish when you've got five or six kids, and tell your friends or the priest who have one or two that you refuse to practice contraception because it's immoral and offends Christ.  That discussion is going to be stickier than warm baklava.  Are you up for that?  

If you think Greek and like to listen to Greek, and are sure you can set the proper example by virtually becoming a Greek, then pray with the Greeks.   But remember: the only shelter from the storm that presently buffets the Church is a box, six feet under the ground.  
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#17
OldSalt, I am not looking to pick a fight, however according to the Code of Canon Law, it seems that they may indeed receive, as per Canon 844:

"§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches."
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#18
(05-14-2013, 11:10 AM)NatusDei Wrote: OldSalt, I am not looking to pick a fight, however according to the Code of Canon Law, it seems that they may indeed receive, as per Canon 844:

"§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches."
I am not disputing the fact that the Orthodox are permitted to receive the Blessed Sacrament from Catholic Ministers.

As I have said, I am reiterating Church Teaching that the Orthodox are not Catholic.
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#19
Mea culpa, I misread the emphasis of your post.  Your argument, as presented, stands firm.
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#20
(05-14-2013, 11:00 AM)Old Salt Wrote:
(05-14-2013, 09:56 AM)ImpyTerwilliger Wrote:
(05-14-2013, 09:36 AM)Old Salt Wrote: The Orthodox are not Catholic, Bucko.

Then why are they permitted to receive Holy Communion in the Catholic Church, bucko?

See, e.g., http://old.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/communion.shtml
The CCC passage reiterates what I said namely that the Orthodox are NOT in communion with the Church, and therefore NOT Catholic:

"The Eastern churches that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church celebrate the Eucharist with great love. "These Churches, although separated from us, yet possess true sacraments, above all - by apostolic succession - the priesthood and the Eucharist, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy." A certain communion in sacris...is not merely possible but is encouraged." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, number 1399)

The CCC  says  "These Churches, although separated from us...,"

S E P E R A T E D, AS IN NOT PART OF.

also:
[ambigiously] "a certain communion in sacris...is not merely possible but encouraged."

It does not say "Communion".

They are not Catholic.

Salt, I think you're trying to square a circle.  The new approach to Orthodoxy is not the same as the old one.  Since Vatican 2, Rome has adopted a kind of middle ground, in which the Orthodox occupy a position that is neither fully Catholic nor schismatic.  On the one hand, you provide a definition of what separate means.  But on the other hand, the text you quote talks about being joined.  That which is joined, is by definition not separated.  The CCC and the other documents however, do in fact set up the paradox (I won;t say contradiction) of a Church joined and also separate. 

I think  the key for Latins is that we are obligated to believe in the supremacy of the pope over our spiritual lives.  If the pope wants to give the Greeks and the Russians a dispensation to believe this, that's up to him, arguably.  He has given no such dispensation to us, and we cannot agree with the east that the pope is simply another patriarch subject to the normal rules of the patriarchies.  In other words, there is no reciprocity in this.  That's troubling to Latins, because we like to think about things clearly, and clarity is best served by equality of the application of laws.  In a nutshell:  Greeks and Russians can come to us.  We cannot go to them, unless certain emergency or other critical conditions are met. 

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